The Ins And Outs Of Marketing Your Commercial Real Estate Business

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anton thank you so much for having me

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i’m excited to chat today so

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i am the owner of shine insurance agency

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but really before

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anything else i’m a teacher um so i was

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an elementary school teacher for 13

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years i taught in third third and fourth

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graders how to

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do math how to read how to write how to

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play soccer how to play hockey

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we played a lot of hockey actually it

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was one of my favorites

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um so i spent a lot of time being a

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teacher

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during that time i met my wife and

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business partner who is a third

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generation insurance advisor

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and she was running her dad’s agency and

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we just saw a lot of potential in this

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space we saw

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um a lot of sort of old boys club stuff

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we saw a lot

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of problematic behavior in the

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insurance world as so many of us know i

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mean insurance just has this reputation

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just the word

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we kind of you know uh feel feel

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struggles with it i think all of us do

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and so

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uh we were both ready to do something

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different and we thought what if we try

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and change the way people feel about

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insurance by simply being educators and

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trying to be good people in the space

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and so we started shine in 2013.

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um i fell in love with real estate

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immediately

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so i was working with first-time home

01:17

buyers when i first started and just

01:19

teaching them

01:20

about how to get a mortgage how to fix

01:22

their credit what

01:24

an inspection was what an escrow period

01:26

was what a title company was what

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closings were all these kinds of things

01:30

i was just teaching first-time

01:32

homebuyers how it all

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worked and i was doing that mostly by

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asking realtors and lenders and

01:37

everybody else

01:38

um how it worked i started making videos

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on youtube

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and those videos just started getting a

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lot of views so we now have

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about 14 000 subscribers on a youtube

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channel

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and teaching first-time homebuyers led

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into

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teaching people how to invest in real

01:56

estate uh

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in general which led into really

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commercial

02:00

real estate investing and now i am a

02:03

hundred percent not only on the

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insurance side

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but on the uh youtube channel uh all

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around commercial real estate teaching

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people

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how to succeed in this business how to

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build a strategy

02:15

that makes them lots of money and takes

02:17

great care of people at the same time

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and then how to protect those assets as

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well so

02:22

uh that was a very long short story in a

02:25

very short period

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yeah that’s uh that’s a great story uh

02:30

uh you you were born in in san diego

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right and now you’re based in indiana

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i assume you didn’t play much uh hockey

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in in san diego but you picked it up

02:41

when you

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moved to indiana yeah when i so yeah i

02:44

did more surfing and boogie boarding and

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hanging out on the beach and things like

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that when i was in san diego uh

02:50

in indiana i came to love hockey and

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then i moved to vermont for a while

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and watched a lot of hockey on you know

02:57

cbc

02:58

and stuff like that and you know in

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vermont and obviously canada there’s

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there’s a deep love

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for uh hockey and so as a teacher i

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figured out how to

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we didn’t put on ice skates and stuff

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like that we played like floor hockey

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um but all the same rules applied and i

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would put kids in the box which is like

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you know if they did something wrong

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they’d get put in the box for a while

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and

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and they always thought that was the

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worst having to sit on the side for two

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minutes while everyone else got to play

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yeah but it was good yeah it’s a great

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team sport i’m from switzerland

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originally right there

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ordered in soccer in the summer hockey

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is a big team sports in the winter

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right and it’s a it’s a rough sport

03:37

right but it’s a it’s a very good team

03:40

sport that is uh

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very quick and it teaches the kids a lot

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of

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ways of of dealing with uh with defeat

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and uh

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and roughness too right and uh

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i think that helps also for real estate

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investors right uh

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it’s a rough and humble world in a lot

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of

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in a lot of instances and i think it’s

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always

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uh good to hear from from

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orders uh that that are educating

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investors that are not institutional

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have an institutional background but a

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lot of our clients are

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also private investors or syndicators

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and that’s a big part of our job too

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just to educate them to make sure that

04:27

they are

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aware of all the the pitfalls that they

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may think are not there or someone tells

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them particularly

04:36

coaching gurus tell them it’s all easy

04:39

easy going

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until until they realize it’s not that

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not that easy well yeah i mean i love

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sports analogies in general and i think

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with real estate

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it absolutely applies i mean especially

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commercial real estate right from the

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base it’s a team sport

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i think we all understand that without

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the team around us without trusting

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the other people that are a part of our

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team we don’t get very far if you want

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to

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play a single sport like tennis or

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something like that you go out and

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invest in residential real estate

05:08

that is certainly more possible to do

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but if you’re going to be in

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multi-family or

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office or retail or wherever i think it

05:15

is a team sport and then i think you’re

05:17

right you

05:17

have to learn how to lose sometimes and

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you have to learn to get that repetition

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i hear that over and over again it’s

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like

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you build your strategy you understand

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where you’re going

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and then you get your licks in you get

05:29

your repetition you get your swings in

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whatever your metaphor is that works

05:33

whether it’s a sports metaphor or

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something else

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you’re figuring out what those things

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are so you can a

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learn to get better yourself and b

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learn to tell who the people that have

05:45

red flags about them

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or who aren’t doing it well so that you

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don’t ask them to join your team

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as a part of elevating the game so i am

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a huge fan of sports analogy

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i’m also a huge fan of european soccer

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champions league

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is in full effect right now and i think

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that hockey and soccer are great

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examples of

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team sports as well as so many others

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that really do align with commercial

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real estate investing

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yeah definitely uh it’s

06:14

as you mentioned it’s it’s a team sport

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right

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and you assembling that team early on is

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absolutely crucial

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and uh unfortunately even though we are

06:26

we are telling that our clients over and

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over and over

06:30

some of them are not listening until

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they are already under contract and then

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they

06:35

reach out to us for financing and they

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realize that their

06:39

underwriting was completely off and on

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the insurance side it’s the same thing

06:44

right so then suddenly

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they realize wait i need insurance and

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as you know right it takes some time to

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get

06:53

commercial insurance quotes this is not

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just a residential property where you

06:57

where you get a quote within essentially

07:01

a few minutes right right yeah i think

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that

07:04

the insurance side of that underwriting

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is one more line item one more piece

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that understanding how it works is

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really really important and there are

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some just basic

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simple things you can do the most

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important one

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is this and this is true with so many

07:20

things establishing a relationship with

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someone

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that you trust to know it what it is

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you’re doing

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insurance probably more than a lot of

07:29

other worlds

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has a lot of bad actors not people who

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are purposefully bad actors

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but people and there certainly are those

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but people who are think they can do it

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and just

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can’t the reality is like so many other

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spaces you can make a lot of money

07:45

insuring commercial real estate and so

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someone who doesn’t necessarily know

07:50

what they’re doing if they’re a friend

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of yours or someone you connected with

07:53

them somehow

07:54

you say hey i’ve got a 144 unit

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multi-family

07:57

complex on the coast of louisiana

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that’s a value add it’s got some

08:02

deferred maintenance but i think it’s

08:04

going to be cool can you insure it

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well that person’s thinking boy i could

08:08

make 15 000

08:10

doing that so what are they going to say

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well they’re going to say

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yes and and the reality is they should

08:16

have said no

08:17

and you probably should have asked

08:18

shouldn’t have asked them in the first

08:19

place like

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it’s like asking a lawyer who just got

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out of

08:24

you know law school to write your lease

08:27

for a large multi-family complex or a

08:29

10-year

08:30

triple net lease on an office complex

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like

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you’re going to get what you signed up

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for and that’s not going to be a good

08:37

thing so the first thing i would say

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when it comes to real estate

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or excuse me when it comes to insurance

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is find someone who knows

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what they’re doing and and everything i

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say behind that

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sits underneath that basic premise

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because

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when you ask a lawyer to write that that

08:53

lease you don’t go in there and write

08:55

most of it and then say hey does this

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look pretty good

08:58

and then pay them you know the ten

08:59

thousand dollars you expect them to

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succeed at doing that when you talk to

09:02

your accountant

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um about money and connecting in that

09:06

way you expect them to have some skills

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in that

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i think too often with insurance

09:10

advisors we just think it’s

09:12

easy or it’s not a big thing or it’s

09:14

just a line item we have to deal with

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and we just pick the most

09:16

the closest person and i think that’s a

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huge mistake

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yeah it’s an excellent point we actually

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deal with the same situation right uh

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a lot of our clients ask initially why

09:28

should we use a commercial mortgage

09:30

broker i can go to a lender directly

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yes technically you can the question is

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do you know what lender to reach out to

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right which are the most appropriate

09:41

lenders and once you go under loan

09:43

application

09:44

who is actually helping you to get that

09:46

deal closed without

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as we call it a retrade from a loan

09:51

amount perspective from

09:52

interest rate interest only and so on

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uh so we we have a similar situation

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where

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very often someone believes that they

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don’t really need help when they

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really would would greatly benefit from

10:06

that help

10:07

we also have a lot of residential that

10:09

brokers that think

10:11

because the money obviously they see you

10:13

may make much more money on the

10:15

commercial side

10:16

so that champagne think that they can do

10:19

it

10:20

but that lawyer analogy that you brought

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up is really important right so

10:25

technically

10:26

yes you can get quotes from lenders

10:28

that’s easy

10:30

right collecting quotes is terribly easy

10:33

however the tough part is really to

10:36

identify

10:36

which quote is really realistic and

10:39

which lender can you trust that they can

10:41

perform

10:42

right and if you if you are not in that

10:45

field

10:46

for many years and you have done so many

10:48

loans

10:49

you just don’t know right and that the

10:52

lawyer

10:53

element analogy that you brought up is

10:56

is really important right because

10:58

uh the the the agreements or very often

11:02

standard agreements right so one can

11:04

argue look i can draft that for you

11:07

where the true value of a lawyer comes

11:10

in is to tell you the risks

11:14

that are associated with that

11:17

lease agreement and it’s not really

11:19

written in the agreement itself

11:21

right so you need to be able to identify

11:23

you have the interpretation of the risks

11:26

and hopefully add some wording there and

11:28

i think

11:29

whether it’s for us on the financing

11:31

side or for you on the insurance side

11:33

that’s really where the value comes in

11:36

that

11:37

yes here is a policy but let me tell you

11:40

what the risks are right because

11:44

you have particularly with insurance you

11:46

have so many pages no one reads them

11:48

of course yeah but that that fine print

11:52

can be can have a significant impact and

11:55

if you do not really understand it

11:58

it’s a problem and if you think it’s not

12:00

a problem with

12:01

with a certain class you may have a big

12:04

wake-up call

12:05

down the road right oh absolutely

12:07

there’s two

12:08

two things i thought of as you were

12:10

describing our two industries

12:12

and the way that we serve investors as a

12:15

part of their team

12:16

being so similar and one of those

12:18

similarities is

12:19

the reality for i think both of us is

12:22

finding a really good commercial real

12:25

estate lender and finding a really good

12:27

commercial real estate insurance advisor

12:29

is likely going to end up being

12:30

ultimately cheaper than going the other

12:34

way now it may not seem that way on the

12:36

front end because we’re putting together

12:38

a quality product

12:39

instead of a non-quality product that

12:41

looks cheaper

12:42

but i think in both cases of hours

12:45

oftentimes

12:46

a better advisor is actually going to

12:50

save you money so not only are they a

12:51

better advisor but they’re cheaper in

12:53

the end

12:54

it always amazes me that those two

12:55

things can come together

12:57

of course that isn’t always the case it

12:59

depends on the scenario

13:00

yeah um but and i just think that’s so

13:03

true like there are so many little

13:04

details in loans there are so many

13:06

little details

13:08

in contracts there are so many little

13:09

details and insurance and

13:11

no one expects investors to know all of

13:13

that and that’s why

13:15

building your team is such a key

13:17

foundational piece

13:18

of what you do as a successful

13:20

commercial real estate investor

13:22

because every good leader has people

13:25

they trust

13:26

and that’s what i think you have to

13:28

figure out yeah

13:29

absolutely uh so obviously kovit 19 is

13:34

still on everyone’s mind now we have

13:36

essentially passed roughly one year

13:39

uh in a lockdown environment right

13:42

depending on the state

13:44

uh one lifts in the lockdown

13:47

feels still like a real lockdown in some

13:50

other states like we are in texas

13:52

it feels like almost being back to

13:55

normal

13:56

uh so how how did it uh

14:00

work out for you and some of your

14:02

clients over the last year

14:04

uh starting in in march of 2020 when

14:07

the whole world uh seemed to fall apart

14:11

and how did

14:12

that you and you your clients deal with

14:15

it

14:16

i think for us we were a virtual agency

14:19

pretty well already we had everything

14:21

set up in that space we obviously lost a

14:23

ton of our

14:24

physical interactions with our clients

14:27

with investors with

14:28

other insurance advice you know with

14:30

everybody we just lost a lot of that

14:32

physical interaction like everyone has

14:34

and and that’s coming back a little bit

14:36

slowly

14:36

but i certainly miss that going to a

14:38

conference and getting to see people

14:40

that

14:40

i haven’t seen for a year since the last

14:42

one you know that was big for us but as

14:44

far as our

14:45

business we were very fortunate in the

14:47

sense that not very big effect

14:49

on our business structure itself we were

14:52

already basically built for this

14:54

um the effect on our clients as a whole

14:57

has been huge i mean we have insured

14:59

restaurants

15:00

a small business things of that nature

15:02

we are focused on commercial real estate

15:04

right now which i’ll get into in a

15:05

second

15:06

so that was actually a blessing in a lot

15:08

of ways but a lot of our clients that

15:10

we’ve had for years and years

15:11

closed down or are struggling like so

15:13

many other people

15:15

and so we’ve helped people navigate that

15:16

and i would say a large percentage of

15:19

our small business clients have closed

15:21

down

15:21

whether they reopen or things like that

15:23

or are still to be seen

15:26

but retail has struggled no doubt

15:29

and hospitality as well seeing that come

15:33

back

15:33

a lot more particularly the airbnb space

15:35

vrbo

15:37

that kind of thing but for real estate

15:39

investors i think the first

15:40

big question and this was a business as

15:42

a whole was

15:44

around the coverage of loss of

15:47

income so insurance policies have um

15:51

coverage for lost income so if you have

15:53

a property and a building burns down

15:55

and you are not able to make any money

15:57

from that building anymore you had a 16

15:59

16 units in there for a year we’re

16:02

rebuilding it for you

16:04

and you can’t make the hundred and sixty

16:05

hundred and seventy thousand dollars

16:07

that you would have made off

16:08

of that property your insurance policy

16:10

should have coverage built in to cover

16:12

that lost income so a lot of business

16:16

owners particularly

16:17

main street businesses asked well i lost

16:21

income because of kovit people can’t

16:24

come into my business anymore

16:26

they can’t walk anymore the government

16:27

has shut down me

16:29

you know i had to close my doors does my

16:31

insurance

16:32

policy cover my lost income which was a

16:35

great question

16:36

and the answer is no the reason

16:40

for that is that business income

16:43

coverage

16:43

loss of income coverage is directly

16:46

related

16:48

to a physical loss to your building

16:51

so if your building burns down that is a

16:54

physical loss to your building and loss

16:55

of income would apply

16:57

if your building gets blown over by a

16:59

tornado that is a physical loss to your

17:01

building

17:02

and loss of income would apply a

17:04

pandemic

17:05

does not apply and so there was a lot of

17:08

confusion about

17:09

that early on of course businesses

17:11

hoping that their insurance policy would

17:13

pay out

17:14

for the lost income associated with

17:16

kovid and that just wasn’t the case

17:18

there are some specific policies

17:19

wimbledon was a great example they had a

17:21

policy that ultimately paid out i think

17:23

about 5 million

17:24

or something like that but those are

17:26

specific very expensive policies that no

17:28

one really had

17:29

yeah so that was the biggest coveted

17:31

thing

17:32

early on

17:36

have you seen some carriers

17:39

or some niche players now offering some

17:42

type of

17:44

of insurance that will cover obviously

17:46

no kobe 19 because we already am but

17:49

kind of future

17:51

uh events similar to a

17:54

pandemic or some other events that are

17:56

not

17:57

physical loss related yeah i think we’re

18:00

going to see two things and we’re

18:01

already seeing some of this

18:03

one is a more specific insurance

18:06

product or a thing you can buy that

18:08

specifically addresses lost income from

18:11

this

18:11

my sense is the likelihood of price

18:14

matching what you’re willing to pay

18:16

may not be very clear because it’s just

18:19

such a potentially

18:20

large loss for insurance companies i

18:22

mean had they had to pay for everyone’s

18:25

lost income

18:27

a bunch of insurance companies would

18:28

have gone out of business we would have

18:29

another problem

18:30

um but i see those things starting to be

18:33

created

18:34

the other thing i see is what insurance

18:36

companies often do these scenarios

18:38

is more specifically exclude

18:41

coverage for these things so they say

18:43

well my legal language wasn’t quite

18:46

strong enough and so i want to make it

18:48

stronger

18:49

and so you’ll see new endorsements that

18:52

actually more

18:53

clearly say hey just to be clear

18:56

this is not covered so i think we’ll see

18:58

both of those things

18:59

yeah okay so now uh the exclusions

19:03

grow and grow and grow right so yeah

19:06

insurance policies those 200 pages are

19:08

basically the story of

19:10

a you know 400 year history or whatever

19:12

of

19:13

insurance companies saying we’ll ensure

19:14

this and someone’s saying hey well does

19:16

this get covered and

19:17

them saying oh well that wasn’t very

19:18

clear so we’ll make another little

19:20

clause that makes that

19:21

particular situation clear and back and

19:24

forth and back and forth so

19:26

mike like most legal documents insurance

19:29

policies are a story just a rather

19:32

boring story

19:33

to read yeah yeah

19:36

so uh obviously part is uh

19:39

uh was driven by natural disasters

19:42

that we have have gone through over the

19:44

last uh

19:46

uh year or two uh we saw you have seen

19:49

in a number of markets quite a bit of

19:51

rise

19:52

in uh in insurance premium that’s

19:55

completely unrelated to the corvette 19.

19:58

it’s

19:58

it’s really natural disaster related

20:03

should you see any any pause to that

20:06

or any relief to that

20:09

or do you see that the premiums still

20:13

are going up that’s a great question and

20:16

there’s no doubt that particularly in

20:17

the multi-family world but i think

20:19

across commercial real estate we’ve seen

20:21

increases

20:22

over the last three years

20:25

some significant increases an

20:28

interesting stat

20:30

mult insurance companies have lost money

20:33

on the multi-family asset class for

20:36

12 quarters in a row we just completed

20:39

another quarter i don’t know the answer

20:41

this one so it could be 13.

20:42

so you know insurance companies are

20:44

losing money on multi-family

20:46

and that’s why in this asset class in

20:48

particular

20:49

we’ve seen huge increases now i’m doing

20:52

a lot to navigate that

20:54

but that’s a reality i think in the last

20:57

year we’ve seen it stabilize a little

20:58

bit more

20:59

i’ve seen it kind of sit but also covid

21:01

was involved so i think a lot of

21:02

insurance companies are sort of sitting

21:04

still to see what all

21:05

is about to happen in the market so they

21:08

can have a better sense of what they

21:09

need to do around rate

21:11

and uh thankfully i’ve seen on both

21:14

residential and commercial side

21:16

insurance companies get a lot more flat

21:18

for this last year we’ll see what they

21:20

do in the next year

21:22

but there’s no doubt that there’s this

21:24

relationship between natural disasters

21:26

between uh hail chasing roofers which is

21:29

always a back and forth between

21:30

insurance companies

21:32

and um roofers and obviously in in the

21:35

multifamily space

21:36

roofs can be three four five hundred

21:38

thousand dollars millions of dollars

21:40

in some scenarios so that’s a big piece

21:43

and then

21:43

liability law is the other huge piece i

21:46

mean florida is really dealing with this

21:48

where the the laws for litigation

21:51

really lean towards the the folks filing

21:55

the lawsuits

21:56

and insurance companies are struggling

21:58

with how big the losses are

22:01

around those litigation claims now who’s

22:04

right or wrong is not what we’re here to

22:06

talk about but that is just the reality

22:08

of the back and forth

22:10

so when you’re losing millions of

22:11

dollars in a claim where someone burned

22:14

themselves or slipped on a staircase or

22:16

whatever it is that’s maybe an extreme

22:17

example but

22:19

um insurance companies are in a position

22:21

to

22:22

increase premium now that you know you

22:24

look at uh ceos of insurance companies

22:26

they’re making plenty of money so

22:28

i’m not you know crying for the

22:29

insurance companies or anything like

22:31

that but that is the back and forth

22:32

right they’re trying to make a profit

22:34

and if they aren’t making a profit then

22:36

they have to do something to do so

22:38

i’m seeing i’m seeing a lot of companies

22:41

leave multi-family

22:43

say we’re not interested anymore

22:44

companies like

22:46

guard which is a berkshire hathaway

22:48

company they’re still kind of doing it

22:49

but i’m seeing 30

22:51

rate increases on renewals for some of

22:54

those policies

22:55

that’s a company saying we don’t want to

22:57

do it anymore yeah

22:59

we’ll insure it we’ll ensure it if

23:01

you’ll take a thirty percent request

23:03

what they’re saying is

23:04

we don’t wanna do it anymore sure so

23:07

that’s that’s what we’re

23:08

navigating but there’s plenty of folks

23:09

who do want to do it and there’s plenty

23:11

i mean

23:11

my book of business has an average

23:13

increase annually between five and ten

23:16

percent

23:17

um and there’s a lot of things i do to

23:19

make that happen and i have the benefit

23:21

of being pretty large in the midwest

23:23

um not places like texas florida or

23:26

california where it is a little bit

23:27

harder

23:28

but i’m seeing some stabilization is the

23:30

answer to your question but i’m

23:31

not sure where it’s going to go yeah

23:33

okay so

23:35

where do you see the reason why they

23:37

lose more money

23:38

in multifamily than in any other

23:40

commercial

23:41

asset class is it because of the the

23:44

roof

23:45

primarily roof damage and liability

23:47

claims

23:49

you would think solely on the retail

23:51

side you would have also a lot of

23:52

liability

23:54

uh risks so what what is the difference

23:57

between these asset class that

23:59

multi-family is causing

24:01

the largest impact on the negative side

24:05

for these carriers

24:07

when you have uh people living in a

24:10

place there’s just many more

24:11

opportunities for bad things to happen

24:13

i mean the bottom line is the numbers

24:15

are just different that’s the answer

24:16

when you look at office losses they’re

24:18

much lower

24:19

than when you look at multi-family

24:20

losses but the reason for that

24:22

is habitational people living in a space

24:26

has much more repetition of human

24:28

behavior

24:29

many more stoves many more cars parking

24:32

in places many more human interactions

24:34

and parties

24:36

and so you have more opportunities for

24:39

bad things to happen

24:40

including fires including liability

24:44

claims

24:45

and all those kinds of things so in

24:47

general this has been true across the

24:48

history of insurance that

24:50

you know the more a space has activity

24:54

the more likely a claim is to happen and

24:56

therefore the more often claims happen

24:58

in that

24:59

particular asset class yeah that’s a

25:02

great point yeah so you have essentially

25:05

a high density environment uh for almost

25:08

24

25:09

7. yeah yeah yeah

25:12

yeah office most people go home you’ve

25:14

got you know got 12 hours of the day

25:15

where nothing’s happening in that space

25:17

particularly

25:18

you don’t have any stoves or very few

25:20

stoves the most risky part of

25:22

the space now you have people in and out

25:25

there’s risk but there’s just a lot less

25:27

yeah okay very good so when you look uh

25:32

i obviously don’t have a crystal ball

25:34

but uh

25:36

what do you think is going to happen in

25:38

insurance space

25:40

over the next year or two

25:43

due to corey but also because of the

25:45

changes in the way

25:46

everyone works and operates building

25:49

codes

25:50

and so on yeah i think i mean i think

25:53

we’re going to say

25:54

stay a little bit more flat than we were

25:56

in the past two years but i think we are

25:58

going to remain

25:59

a hard market which means you know it

26:02

prices

26:03

are going to continue to go up

26:06

i mean prices don’t go down

26:07

unfortunately i don’t know that there’s

26:09

ever been well that’s not true in

26:10

commercial real estate there can be soft

26:12

markets where you have companies then

26:13

fighting for business if you have it’s a

26:15

supply and demand thing right

26:17

if you have companies vying for business

26:20

then i have the ability as an

26:21

agent to make those companies fight each

26:23

other and

26:24

inherently make the price go down for

26:26

the exact same product

26:28

if fewer and fewer companies are vying

26:30

for that same business

26:32

then those companies sticking around can

26:34

increase their rate because they know

26:36

that there’s not as much supply so even

26:39

though

26:39

it’s not a physical thing that we’re

26:41

selling necessarily it’s a supply and

26:43

demand

26:45

all in the same and right now we are in

26:47

a low supply

26:48

environment and i don’t expect that to

26:50

change i do like how price flattened a

26:52

little bit

26:53

and i do think that as fewer and fewer

26:55

companies are in there

26:56

companies are going to come back they

26:58

always do at some point they look and

27:00

they say look how low the supply is

27:02

i could be in that supply space and so

27:04

i’m going to come back

27:06

and at that point you start to get more

27:08

and then you start to see price

27:10

uh you know be able to get softer which

27:12

gives us the ability to fight them down

27:15

and give our clients a better price so

27:18

i certainly would underwrite for 10

27:21

increases

27:22

a year i think that’s a very safe way to

27:24

underwrite

27:25

um your properties and your deals um

27:28

but you know i think that we can see

27:31

some flattening there without the

27:32

crystal ball that i described

27:34

yeah okay very good so uh we saw only

27:38

what do you

27:38

uh uh refer to we also see in the

27:41

landing space all the time i would say

27:43

right now it’s probably particularly in

27:46

the bridge loan space

27:47

right a year ago a big chunk of the

27:51

the bridge market disappeared virtually

27:53

overnight

27:54

and it was a pretty pretty limited

27:57

uh environment one could find bridge

28:00

loans

28:01

a lot of bridge lenders disappear

28:04

completely

28:04

some of them stayed but they were very

28:06

pecky

28:07

and now we are back to i would say very

28:10

very well before pre-corvette we have

28:13

very aggressive pricing we have players

28:16

coming back in and

28:18

trying to beat each other right so

28:20

obviously we don’t have that situation

28:23

on the

28:23

insurance base in the insurance space

28:26

right now but

28:27

you never know right you just need

28:29

someone who decides i think we

28:32

uh the premiums are high enough that

28:34

it’s worthwhile to enter

28:36

i think so yeah and i think insurance is

28:39

exactly like you just described it’s

28:41

just

28:41

slower everything about the way that

28:44

things change

28:45

in this industry are slower than the way

28:48

that they play out in the mortgage

28:49

industry

28:50

at least that’s been my experience i

28:52

don’t know if you agree with that yeah

28:53

definitely so you uh

28:56

have grown your agency uh quite rapidly

29:00

over

29:01

over the last seven years or so you also

29:04

have a

29:05

podcast so you clearly have a

29:08

marketing element to uh that you that

29:12

you bring to

29:12

to the table uh to your agency

29:16

uh so can you give uh our listeners uh

29:20

uh maybe a few tips of uh

29:23

how they can position themselves to uh

29:26

to be more visible right

29:28

particularly as a real estate investor

29:31

visible to your brokers when you want to

29:34

buy your property is pretty

29:35

important but also particularly if

29:38

you’re a syndicator you

29:40

you need to raise money at some point uh

29:43

so do you have some some snippets based

29:46

on your interviews that you have done

29:48

and as well as

29:49

your own experience where you see that

29:51

these are some

29:52

some marketing elements where it’s

29:55

really

29:56

uh that are kind of the more successful

29:58

ones

29:59

absolutely so i think that one of the

30:01

things i started from the very beginning

30:03

and remains

30:04

true although there’s a lot more people

30:06

doing this now but

30:07

is that when you decide what you’re

30:10

going to do if you’re going to be a

30:11

sponsor if you’re going to be a passive

30:13

investor

30:13

if you’re going to be a joint you know

30:15

do a joint venture whatever it is you’re

30:17

doing

30:17

and you start thinking about who the

30:19

people you need to attract are

30:21

you need to define those people as

30:24

clearly as possible and if you look up

30:26

ideal client avatar there’s lots of

30:29

people with lots of opinions on how to

30:31

develop this

30:32

person but you want to develop the

30:34

people you’re trying to attract

30:36

down to almost like a single human you

30:39

give them a name you talk about their

30:41

personality you know what they do for

30:43

fun

30:44

the more you can zoom in on this person

30:46

you’re trying to attract

30:48

and talk to them in the things that you

30:50

do the larger the community of people

30:52

are going to attract

30:54

to you um it’s just inherently one of

30:57

those things where if you just zoom in

30:58

on one person lots more people want to

31:00

be a part of that whereas if you try to

31:02

talk to everybody

31:03

it’s too bland and no one’s interested

31:06

so the first thing i would do is

31:08

really refine who your ideal client is

31:11

that you’re trying to attract if that’s

31:12

a type of broker who is that type of

31:14

broker what kind of business are they

31:16

doing what kind of car do they drive

31:18

you know really what market are there

31:20

and they in and start to refine that

31:23

once you have an ideal client for

31:25

whatever it is you’re trying to do

31:27

then you’ve got to figure out how to do

31:29

good things for them and i don’t think

31:31

that has to do

31:32

anything to do with your product or what

31:34

you have obviously

31:35

in the work that we do around real

31:36

estate there’s lots of things around

31:38

real estate you can do to help people

31:40

but figure out a way to help them so for

31:42

me the podcast was a great idea my ideal

31:45

client

31:46

is a commercial real estate investor in

31:49

multi-family office

31:50

retail or industrial with 50 or more

31:53

units

31:54

and that is the person i’m trying to

31:56

attract and connect with i always also

31:58

want them to be someone i like and would

32:00

enjoy

32:00

having a drink with or getting to know

32:03

and someone who’s not just trying to

32:04

make me

32:05

quote business against five other agents

32:07

to see who can

32:08

bring them the cheapest dirtiest quote

32:11

so that’s my ideal client so how can i

32:13

help that person

32:14

well a podcast is a great way to do that

32:16

if i’m interviewing other people

32:18

who have a hundred units who have a

32:20

thousand units who have been investing

32:22

in real estate

32:23

like brian burke for 20 years and have

32:26

thousands of units

32:27

you know and ask them how they did it

32:29

and how they succeeded and how they

32:30

built their strategies underneath

32:32

their successful journey and i can

32:35

provide that value to other people who

32:37

are trying to go on the same journey

32:39

then that has nothing to do with

32:41

insurance and i’m not trying to make it

32:42

about insurance

32:43

i am just trying to help those people

32:46

and inherently

32:47

they then turn around and see me as a

32:49

thought leader as well

32:50

so for your listeners you’ve realized

32:54

the ideal client

32:55

now what is it that you can do for them

32:57

podcasts are great there’s a lot of them

32:58

out there though so you know you’ve got

33:00

to have one that makes a lot of sense

33:02

but it’s a great example you could have

33:04

a clubhouse room you could create

33:06

a dot you know have a way to underwrite

33:09

deals if you have a great underwriting

33:12

system a great pro forma that you use

33:14

share that with other people there’s

33:16

lots of ways you can provide

33:18

value to people so start providing that

33:21

value

33:22

and then the last thing i would say is

33:24

you have to be

33:25

consistent in whatever you’re doing if

33:28

you’ve decided

33:29

i’m going to comment on 10 linkedin

33:32

posts a day

33:33

of people that i look up to and want to

33:35

be a part of that’s a great strategy

33:37

that’s an awesome strategy that lots of

33:39

people gary vee

33:40

and jonah weiss and folks like that

33:42

suggest you use

33:44

um as a very simple way that you don’t

33:46

have to create your own content you can

33:47

just go out there and comment on other

33:49

people’s

33:50

you’ve got to do it every day you know

33:52

if you’re going to create a podcast you

33:54

have got to decide

33:55

when am i going to put that out you know

33:56

i’m on episode 47 i put it out every

33:59

tuesday

34:00

for a year now i’ve been podcasting for

34:02

five years but this particular podcast

34:04

has been out for a year

34:05

so that is consistency and what you’ll

34:08

build

34:08

over time is a snowball that grows and

34:11

grows

34:11

and grows and you start to connect with

34:14

those people who you wanted to connect

34:15

with

34:16

and your ideal clients become your

34:18

friends become a part of your team

34:20

and opportunities start presenting

34:22

themselves so

34:24

it’s just a matter of knowing who you’re

34:25

talking to doing good

34:27

things for those people and being

34:29

consistent in the good that you’re doing

34:32

yeah that’s uh all great tips uh what

34:35

you mentioned earlier right with

34:37

focusing on your avatar

34:39

i think that’s uh it’s very important

34:42

i think it’s even important when it

34:44

comes to to your

34:47

investment strategy right we see a lot

34:50

of

34:50

our clients and partly particularly

34:53

newcomers to the space they

34:55

are they are looking at everything right

34:58

so they

34:59

they start they are subscribed to every

35:02

single

35:03

list that they can subscribe to from

35:05

across the country

35:06

with every single listing on market off

35:09

market that is out there

35:10

and they ask me what about what about

35:13

this in indiana what about this in

35:15

phoenix what about

35:16

this in florida and they do not have a

35:19

clue about any of these markets

35:21

but they still think that that might be

35:23

a deal right

35:25

yeah so they are never be able to really

35:28

identify a true opportunity because they

35:30

spread themselves

35:31

way too too thin and

35:35

i i understand it’s always that shiny

35:38

object everyone is

35:39

is looking for right but that focus

35:43

uh on on your clients to focus on

35:46

on the markets to focus on the

35:48

properties that you are

35:50

focusing on is is is really

35:53

a crucial piece to to be successful

35:56

right you need to be an expert in in

35:58

something

36:00

and you cannot be an expert in

36:01

everything no and i mean it leads to two

36:04

things especially in a saturated market

36:06

like we have right now i mean if you’re

36:08

coming into commercial real estate

36:09

for the first time you have to

36:11

understand there are a lot of people

36:12

doing the exact same thing right now

36:15

and that doesn’t mean you can’t succeed

36:17

it does mean it’s going to be harder to

36:19

succeed

36:20

and especially if you’re more spread out

36:22

it’s going to be even harder to succeed

36:24

so if you focus on a market

36:26

or if you’re a passive investor you

36:28

focus on finding the right syndicator

36:30

or if you’re a sponsor you say i i

36:33

know cleveland ohio because i live in

36:36

cleveland ohio

36:37

you know or i know whatever market it is

36:40

you’re focusing on

36:41

you’ve inherently gotten rid of a ton of

36:43

the other competitors that you have in

36:45

your space

36:46

and i think that makes a ton of sense

36:48

and then the other thought is there’s

36:50

just burnout

36:51

you know in social media i think

36:52

clubhouse i don’t know anton if you’re

36:54

on

36:55

a clubhouse or not and i love clubhouse

36:56

and i’m enjoying it but i mean it is a

36:59

constant especially with if you have you

37:01

know the reminders on your phone or

37:02

whatever

37:03

it is constantly asking you to engage

37:06

and be a part and especially if you’re

37:08

spread thin looking for markets all over

37:10

the place in all different asset classes

37:12

at all different values

37:14

it’s just you’re gonna burn out and it’s

37:16

it’s not where you’re gonna end up happy

37:18

and it’s not where you’re gonna end up

37:20

successful and you’re gonna look back

37:22

and wish you had had a better foundation

37:24

a stronger strategy

37:25

and more clarity yeah definitely right

37:29

and uh whether it’s clubhouse whether

37:31

it’s

37:32

facebook linkedin whatever it is it’s

37:34

also important remember

37:36

people always put their best story

37:38

forward

37:42

so don’t be upset right so that uh

37:45

uh social media is

37:49

a beautiful thing but it also can be a

37:51

curse when you

37:52

when you feel that that you are the

37:54

loose on the losing end right everyone

37:57

apparently is winning but you are losing

37:59

when

38:00

in reality that’s uh that’s just part of

38:03

of marketing right

38:04

so oh it’s part of business it’s part of

38:06

being an entrepreneur they’re

38:08

you know every single entrepreneur

38:10

successful not whoever

38:12

you know is struggling 30 of their time

38:15

at least and many are struggling 80

38:17

of their time i would say but none of

38:18

that is shown on the outside i struggle

38:21

at least 30

38:22

percent of my day you know whether

38:24

that’s with why don’t i have a better

38:25

strategy why haven’t i trained

38:27

this individual better than i did before

38:29

why didn’t i reach out to more people

38:31

today like i said i was going to why

38:33

didn’t i

38:33

reach that goal that i wanted to achieve

38:36

and i believe why wasn’t i as consistent

38:38

as i thought i could have been

38:40

you know we all have doubts we all have

38:42

failures and none of those

38:44

are on social media that’s right you

38:46

know yeah

38:47

but that’s just reality and there’s

38:48

nothing wrong with that because that is

38:50

a part of learning it’s what you learn

38:51

from those

38:52

uh doubts what you learn from those

38:54

failures uh

38:55

you know you can’t fit there’s lots of

38:58

things you know

38:59

failure isn’t a bad word or whatever you

39:01

know that’s how you learn

39:02

yeah absolutely you also mentioned right

39:06

add value uh part of that is

39:09

i think is also the to connect people

39:12

right

39:12

refer and don’t expect some return when

39:16

you refer

39:16

someone right and

39:21

if you cannot help you you refer then

39:24

everyone is is remembering that you

39:27

referred someone

39:28

right without asking for anything

39:32

yes you didn’t win but down the road uh

39:34

i think you will still win and you just

39:36

created

39:38

someone else if they the the two

39:40

individuals that connected when they

39:42

were successful

39:43

they both remember that you helped them

39:46

to to be successful

39:48

right so don’t be greedy right

39:51

oh my gosh referrals are the are the

39:53

glue of the real estate community real

39:55

estate

39:56

is a people business we all know that

39:58

and

39:59

referrals are the glue of that and so

40:01

you get two things

40:02

when you refer people one is what you

40:04

just said they remember you as the

40:06

person who brought them together

40:08

but then you know you get that person

40:09

who you ask them for a referral at some

40:11

point and they’re going to give it to

40:12

you

40:13

and i think as a service provider

40:15

there’s just nothing better than a

40:17

referral coming my direction because

40:19

there’s already trust built if someone

40:22

was willing to say

40:24

hey you should go check out shine

40:25

insurance jeremy is awesome

40:27

they take care of us they take care of

40:29

our portfolio and they do an amazing job

40:31

that person also has some already has

40:34

some knowledge

40:35

of who i am and what i am in a different

40:37

way than if they just found me on google

40:40

or whatever and so you’re helping the

40:41

person on the other end you’re helping

40:42

the person who you referred

40:44

and you’re helping yourself referrals

40:45

are just such a beautiful thing

40:47

yeah yeah it’s a great point

40:50

right so jeremy you

40:54

you added the uh great value today to

40:57

our listeners uh how how can they reach

41:00

you when they want to talk to you about

41:02

uh

41:03

your business your podcast marketing

41:06

whatever it might be or hockey

41:09

i’ll always talk hockey you can find me

41:12

all over on social media

41:14

just search my name as far as the

41:16

podcast it is rei

41:17

clarity.com and then if you want to talk

41:21

about insurance

41:22

i really feel like almost 80 percent of

41:24

real estate

41:25

investors have terrible insurance

41:27

policies because of some of the things

41:28

we talked about

41:29

in this conversation if you go to

41:31

shineinsurance.com

41:33

rei quick three-minute quiz that kind of

41:36

helps you to understand whether you’re

41:38

one of them

41:39

um you know it’s pretty simple

41:40

straightforward but gives you a sense of

41:42

if you have some of the things

41:44

that you need uh to be properly set up

41:46

so yeah those are the ways to find me

41:47

and anton i really appreciate

41:49

being able to chat with your audience

41:51

today yeah thanks for being with us

41:56

jeremy