00:00
anton thank you so much for having me
00:01
i’m excited to chat today so
00:04
i am the owner of shine insurance agency
00:06
but really before
00:08
anything else i’m a teacher um so i was
00:11
an elementary school teacher for 13
00:13
years i taught in third third and fourth
00:15
graders how to
00:17
do math how to read how to write how to
00:19
play soccer how to play hockey
00:21
we played a lot of hockey actually it
00:23
was one of my favorites
00:25
um so i spent a lot of time being a
00:27
teacher
00:28
during that time i met my wife and
00:29
business partner who is a third
00:31
generation insurance advisor
00:33
and she was running her dad’s agency and
00:35
we just saw a lot of potential in this
00:38
space we saw
00:39
um a lot of sort of old boys club stuff
00:43
we saw a lot
00:44
of problematic behavior in the
00:47
insurance world as so many of us know i
00:49
mean insurance just has this reputation
00:51
just the word
00:52
we kind of you know uh feel feel
00:55
struggles with it i think all of us do
00:57
and so
00:58
uh we were both ready to do something
01:00
different and we thought what if we try
01:02
and change the way people feel about
01:03
insurance by simply being educators and
01:06
trying to be good people in the space
01:09
and so we started shine in 2013.
01:12
um i fell in love with real estate
01:14
immediately
01:15
so i was working with first-time home
01:17
buyers when i first started and just
01:19
teaching them
01:20
about how to get a mortgage how to fix
01:22
their credit what
01:24
an inspection was what an escrow period
01:26
was what a title company was what
01:28
closings were all these kinds of things
01:30
i was just teaching first-time
01:32
homebuyers how it all
01:34
worked and i was doing that mostly by
01:36
asking realtors and lenders and
01:37
everybody else
01:38
um how it worked i started making videos
01:42
on youtube
01:43
and those videos just started getting a
01:45
lot of views so we now have
01:46
about 14 000 subscribers on a youtube
01:49
channel
01:51
and teaching first-time homebuyers led
01:53
into
01:54
teaching people how to invest in real
01:56
estate uh
01:57
in general which led into really
02:00
commercial
02:00
real estate investing and now i am a
02:03
hundred percent not only on the
02:04
insurance side
02:05
but on the uh youtube channel uh all
02:09
around commercial real estate teaching
02:10
people
02:11
how to succeed in this business how to
02:14
build a strategy
02:15
that makes them lots of money and takes
02:17
great care of people at the same time
02:19
and then how to protect those assets as
02:21
well so
02:22
uh that was a very long short story in a
02:25
very short period
02:26
yeah that’s uh that’s a great story uh
02:30
uh you you were born in in san diego
02:34
right and now you’re based in indiana
02:36
i assume you didn’t play much uh hockey
02:38
in in san diego but you picked it up
02:41
when you
02:41
moved to indiana yeah when i so yeah i
02:44
did more surfing and boogie boarding and
02:46
hanging out on the beach and things like
02:48
that when i was in san diego uh
02:50
in indiana i came to love hockey and
02:52
then i moved to vermont for a while
02:54
and watched a lot of hockey on you know
02:57
cbc
02:58
and stuff like that and you know in
03:00
vermont and obviously canada there’s
03:01
there’s a deep love
03:03
for uh hockey and so as a teacher i
03:06
figured out how to
03:07
we didn’t put on ice skates and stuff
03:08
like that we played like floor hockey
03:10
um but all the same rules applied and i
03:13
would put kids in the box which is like
03:15
you know if they did something wrong
03:16
they’d get put in the box for a while
03:17
and
03:18
and they always thought that was the
03:19
worst having to sit on the side for two
03:21
minutes while everyone else got to play
03:23
yeah but it was good yeah it’s a great
03:25
team sport i’m from switzerland
03:27
originally right there
03:29
ordered in soccer in the summer hockey
03:31
is a big team sports in the winter
03:34
right and it’s a it’s a rough sport
03:37
right but it’s a it’s a very good team
03:40
sport that is uh
03:41
very quick and it teaches the kids a lot
03:44
of
03:45
ways of of dealing with uh with defeat
03:48
and uh
03:49
and roughness too right and uh
03:52
i think that helps also for real estate
03:55
investors right uh
03:56
it’s a rough and humble world in a lot
03:59
of
04:00
in a lot of instances and i think it’s
04:02
always
04:03
uh good to hear from from
04:06
orders uh that that are educating
04:10
investors that are not institutional
04:13
have an institutional background but a
04:16
lot of our clients are
04:18
also private investors or syndicators
04:21
and that’s a big part of our job too
04:25
just to educate them to make sure that
04:27
they are
04:29
aware of all the the pitfalls that they
04:32
may think are not there or someone tells
04:35
them particularly
04:36
coaching gurus tell them it’s all easy
04:39
easy going
04:40
until until they realize it’s not that
04:43
not that easy well yeah i mean i love
04:46
sports analogies in general and i think
04:48
with real estate
04:49
it absolutely applies i mean especially
04:52
commercial real estate right from the
04:53
base it’s a team sport
04:55
i think we all understand that without
04:57
the team around us without trusting
04:59
the other people that are a part of our
05:01
team we don’t get very far if you want
05:03
to
05:04
play a single sport like tennis or
05:06
something like that you go out and
05:07
invest in residential real estate
05:08
that is certainly more possible to do
05:11
but if you’re going to be in
05:12
multi-family or
05:13
office or retail or wherever i think it
05:15
is a team sport and then i think you’re
05:17
right you
05:17
have to learn how to lose sometimes and
05:19
you have to learn to get that repetition
05:22
i hear that over and over again it’s
05:23
like
05:24
you build your strategy you understand
05:26
where you’re going
05:27
and then you get your licks in you get
05:29
your repetition you get your swings in
05:31
whatever your metaphor is that works
05:33
whether it’s a sports metaphor or
05:34
something else
05:35
you’re figuring out what those things
05:37
are so you can a
05:40
learn to get better yourself and b
05:43
learn to tell who the people that have
05:45
red flags about them
05:47
or who aren’t doing it well so that you
05:49
don’t ask them to join your team
05:51
as a part of elevating the game so i am
05:54
a huge fan of sports analogy
05:57
i’m also a huge fan of european soccer
05:59
champions league
06:00
is in full effect right now and i think
06:04
that hockey and soccer are great
06:05
examples of
06:06
team sports as well as so many others
06:08
that really do align with commercial
06:10
real estate investing
06:11
yeah definitely uh it’s
06:14
as you mentioned it’s it’s a team sport
06:17
right
06:19
and you assembling that team early on is
06:22
absolutely crucial
06:23
and uh unfortunately even though we are
06:26
we are telling that our clients over and
06:28
over and over
06:30
some of them are not listening until
06:32
they are already under contract and then
06:34
they
06:35
reach out to us for financing and they
06:37
realize that their
06:39
underwriting was completely off and on
06:42
the insurance side it’s the same thing
06:44
right so then suddenly
06:45
they realize wait i need insurance and
06:50
as you know right it takes some time to
06:53
get
06:53
commercial insurance quotes this is not
06:55
just a residential property where you
06:57
where you get a quote within essentially
07:01
a few minutes right right yeah i think
07:04
that
07:04
the insurance side of that underwriting
07:06
is one more line item one more piece
07:09
that understanding how it works is
07:11
really really important and there are
07:13
some just basic
07:14
simple things you can do the most
07:17
important one
07:18
is this and this is true with so many
07:20
things establishing a relationship with
07:22
someone
07:23
that you trust to know it what it is
07:25
you’re doing
07:26
insurance probably more than a lot of
07:29
other worlds
07:30
has a lot of bad actors not people who
07:33
are purposefully bad actors
07:35
but people and there certainly are those
07:37
but people who are think they can do it
07:39
and just
07:39
can’t the reality is like so many other
07:43
spaces you can make a lot of money
07:45
insuring commercial real estate and so
07:48
someone who doesn’t necessarily know
07:50
what they’re doing if they’re a friend
07:51
of yours or someone you connected with
07:53
them somehow
07:54
you say hey i’ve got a 144 unit
07:56
multi-family
07:57
complex on the coast of louisiana
08:00
that’s a value add it’s got some
08:02
deferred maintenance but i think it’s
08:04
going to be cool can you insure it
08:07
well that person’s thinking boy i could
08:08
make 15 000
08:10
doing that so what are they going to say
08:12
well they’re going to say
08:13
yes and and the reality is they should
08:16
have said no
08:17
and you probably should have asked
08:18
shouldn’t have asked them in the first
08:19
place like
08:20
it’s like asking a lawyer who just got
08:23
out of
08:24
you know law school to write your lease
08:27
for a large multi-family complex or a
08:29
10-year
08:30
triple net lease on an office complex
08:33
like
08:33
you’re going to get what you signed up
08:36
for and that’s not going to be a good
08:37
thing so the first thing i would say
08:39
when it comes to real estate
08:40
or excuse me when it comes to insurance
08:42
is find someone who knows
08:44
what they’re doing and and everything i
08:46
say behind that
08:48
sits underneath that basic premise
08:50
because
08:51
when you ask a lawyer to write that that
08:53
lease you don’t go in there and write
08:55
most of it and then say hey does this
08:57
look pretty good
08:58
and then pay them you know the ten
08:59
thousand dollars you expect them to
09:01
succeed at doing that when you talk to
09:02
your accountant
09:04
um about money and connecting in that
09:06
way you expect them to have some skills
09:08
in that
09:08
i think too often with insurance
09:10
advisors we just think it’s
09:12
easy or it’s not a big thing or it’s
09:14
just a line item we have to deal with
09:15
and we just pick the most
09:16
the closest person and i think that’s a
09:19
huge mistake
09:20
yeah it’s an excellent point we actually
09:22
deal with the same situation right uh
09:25
a lot of our clients ask initially why
09:28
should we use a commercial mortgage
09:30
broker i can go to a lender directly
09:33
yes technically you can the question is
09:36
do you know what lender to reach out to
09:38
right which are the most appropriate
09:41
lenders and once you go under loan
09:43
application
09:44
who is actually helping you to get that
09:46
deal closed without
09:48
as we call it a retrade from a loan
09:51
amount perspective from
09:52
interest rate interest only and so on
09:55
uh so we we have a similar situation
09:58
where
09:59
very often someone believes that they
10:01
don’t really need help when they
10:02
really would would greatly benefit from
10:06
that help
10:07
we also have a lot of residential that
10:09
brokers that think
10:11
because the money obviously they see you
10:13
may make much more money on the
10:15
commercial side
10:16
so that champagne think that they can do
10:19
it
10:20
but that lawyer analogy that you brought
10:23
up is really important right so
10:25
technically
10:26
yes you can get quotes from lenders
10:28
that’s easy
10:30
right collecting quotes is terribly easy
10:33
however the tough part is really to
10:36
identify
10:36
which quote is really realistic and
10:39
which lender can you trust that they can
10:41
perform
10:42
right and if you if you are not in that
10:45
field
10:46
for many years and you have done so many
10:48
loans
10:49
you just don’t know right and that the
10:52
lawyer
10:53
element analogy that you brought up is
10:56
is really important right because
10:58
uh the the the agreements or very often
11:02
standard agreements right so one can
11:04
argue look i can draft that for you
11:07
where the true value of a lawyer comes
11:10
in is to tell you the risks
11:14
that are associated with that
11:17
lease agreement and it’s not really
11:19
written in the agreement itself
11:21
right so you need to be able to identify
11:23
you have the interpretation of the risks
11:26
and hopefully add some wording there and
11:28
i think
11:29
whether it’s for us on the financing
11:31
side or for you on the insurance side
11:33
that’s really where the value comes in
11:36
that
11:37
yes here is a policy but let me tell you
11:40
what the risks are right because
11:44
you have particularly with insurance you
11:46
have so many pages no one reads them
11:48
of course yeah but that that fine print
11:52
can be can have a significant impact and
11:55
if you do not really understand it
11:58
it’s a problem and if you think it’s not
12:00
a problem with
12:01
with a certain class you may have a big
12:04
wake-up call
12:05
down the road right oh absolutely
12:07
there’s two
12:08
two things i thought of as you were
12:10
describing our two industries
12:12
and the way that we serve investors as a
12:15
part of their team
12:16
being so similar and one of those
12:18
similarities is
12:19
the reality for i think both of us is
12:22
finding a really good commercial real
12:25
estate lender and finding a really good
12:27
commercial real estate insurance advisor
12:29
is likely going to end up being
12:30
ultimately cheaper than going the other
12:34
way now it may not seem that way on the
12:36
front end because we’re putting together
12:38
a quality product
12:39
instead of a non-quality product that
12:41
looks cheaper
12:42
but i think in both cases of hours
12:45
oftentimes
12:46
a better advisor is actually going to
12:50
save you money so not only are they a
12:51
better advisor but they’re cheaper in
12:53
the end
12:54
it always amazes me that those two
12:55
things can come together
12:57
of course that isn’t always the case it
12:59
depends on the scenario
13:00
yeah um but and i just think that’s so
13:03
true like there are so many little
13:04
details in loans there are so many
13:06
little details
13:08
in contracts there are so many little
13:09
details and insurance and
13:11
no one expects investors to know all of
13:13
that and that’s why
13:15
building your team is such a key
13:17
foundational piece
13:18
of what you do as a successful
13:20
commercial real estate investor
13:22
because every good leader has people
13:25
they trust
13:26
and that’s what i think you have to
13:28
figure out yeah
13:29
absolutely uh so obviously kovit 19 is
13:34
still on everyone’s mind now we have
13:36
essentially passed roughly one year
13:39
uh in a lockdown environment right
13:42
depending on the state
13:44
uh one lifts in the lockdown
13:47
feels still like a real lockdown in some
13:50
other states like we are in texas
13:52
it feels like almost being back to
13:55
normal
13:56
uh so how how did it uh
14:00
work out for you and some of your
14:02
clients over the last year
14:04
uh starting in in march of 2020 when
14:07
the whole world uh seemed to fall apart
14:11
and how did
14:12
that you and you your clients deal with
14:15
it
14:16
i think for us we were a virtual agency
14:19
pretty well already we had everything
14:21
set up in that space we obviously lost a
14:23
ton of our
14:24
physical interactions with our clients
14:27
with investors with
14:28
other insurance advice you know with
14:30
everybody we just lost a lot of that
14:32
physical interaction like everyone has
14:34
and and that’s coming back a little bit
14:36
slowly
14:36
but i certainly miss that going to a
14:38
conference and getting to see people
14:40
that
14:40
i haven’t seen for a year since the last
14:42
one you know that was big for us but as
14:44
far as our
14:45
business we were very fortunate in the
14:47
sense that not very big effect
14:49
on our business structure itself we were
14:52
already basically built for this
14:54
um the effect on our clients as a whole
14:57
has been huge i mean we have insured
14:59
restaurants
15:00
a small business things of that nature
15:02
we are focused on commercial real estate
15:04
right now which i’ll get into in a
15:05
second
15:06
so that was actually a blessing in a lot
15:08
of ways but a lot of our clients that
15:10
we’ve had for years and years
15:11
closed down or are struggling like so
15:13
many other people
15:15
and so we’ve helped people navigate that
15:16
and i would say a large percentage of
15:19
our small business clients have closed
15:21
down
15:21
whether they reopen or things like that
15:23
or are still to be seen
15:26
but retail has struggled no doubt
15:29
and hospitality as well seeing that come
15:33
back
15:33
a lot more particularly the airbnb space
15:35
vrbo
15:37
that kind of thing but for real estate
15:39
investors i think the first
15:40
big question and this was a business as
15:42
a whole was
15:44
around the coverage of loss of
15:47
income so insurance policies have um
15:51
coverage for lost income so if you have
15:53
a property and a building burns down
15:55
and you are not able to make any money
15:57
from that building anymore you had a 16
15:59
16 units in there for a year we’re
16:02
rebuilding it for you
16:04
and you can’t make the hundred and sixty
16:05
hundred and seventy thousand dollars
16:07
that you would have made off
16:08
of that property your insurance policy
16:10
should have coverage built in to cover
16:12
that lost income so a lot of business
16:16
owners particularly
16:17
main street businesses asked well i lost
16:21
income because of kovit people can’t
16:24
come into my business anymore
16:26
they can’t walk anymore the government
16:27
has shut down me
16:29
you know i had to close my doors does my
16:31
insurance
16:32
policy cover my lost income which was a
16:35
great question
16:36
and the answer is no the reason
16:40
for that is that business income
16:43
coverage
16:43
loss of income coverage is directly
16:46
related
16:48
to a physical loss to your building
16:51
so if your building burns down that is a
16:54
physical loss to your building and loss
16:55
of income would apply
16:57
if your building gets blown over by a
16:59
tornado that is a physical loss to your
17:01
building
17:02
and loss of income would apply a
17:04
pandemic
17:05
does not apply and so there was a lot of
17:08
confusion about
17:09
that early on of course businesses
17:11
hoping that their insurance policy would
17:13
pay out
17:14
for the lost income associated with
17:16
kovid and that just wasn’t the case
17:18
there are some specific policies
17:19
wimbledon was a great example they had a
17:21
policy that ultimately paid out i think
17:23
about 5 million
17:24
or something like that but those are
17:26
specific very expensive policies that no
17:28
one really had
17:29
yeah so that was the biggest coveted
17:31
thing
17:32
early on
17:36
have you seen some carriers
17:39
or some niche players now offering some
17:42
type of
17:44
of insurance that will cover obviously
17:46
no kobe 19 because we already am but
17:49
kind of future
17:51
uh events similar to a
17:54
pandemic or some other events that are
17:56
not
17:57
physical loss related yeah i think we’re
18:00
going to see two things and we’re
18:01
already seeing some of this
18:03
one is a more specific insurance
18:06
product or a thing you can buy that
18:08
specifically addresses lost income from
18:11
this
18:11
my sense is the likelihood of price
18:14
matching what you’re willing to pay
18:16
may not be very clear because it’s just
18:19
such a potentially
18:20
large loss for insurance companies i
18:22
mean had they had to pay for everyone’s
18:25
lost income
18:27
a bunch of insurance companies would
18:28
have gone out of business we would have
18:29
another problem
18:30
um but i see those things starting to be
18:33
created
18:34
the other thing i see is what insurance
18:36
companies often do these scenarios
18:38
is more specifically exclude
18:41
coverage for these things so they say
18:43
well my legal language wasn’t quite
18:46
strong enough and so i want to make it
18:48
stronger
18:49
and so you’ll see new endorsements that
18:52
actually more
18:53
clearly say hey just to be clear
18:56
this is not covered so i think we’ll see
18:58
both of those things
18:59
yeah okay so now uh the exclusions
19:03
grow and grow and grow right so yeah
19:06
insurance policies those 200 pages are
19:08
basically the story of
19:10
a you know 400 year history or whatever
19:12
of
19:13
insurance companies saying we’ll ensure
19:14
this and someone’s saying hey well does
19:16
this get covered and
19:17
them saying oh well that wasn’t very
19:18
clear so we’ll make another little
19:20
clause that makes that
19:21
particular situation clear and back and
19:24
forth and back and forth so
19:26
mike like most legal documents insurance
19:29
policies are a story just a rather
19:32
boring story
19:33
to read yeah yeah
19:36
so uh obviously part is uh
19:39
uh was driven by natural disasters
19:42
that we have have gone through over the
19:44
last uh
19:46
uh year or two uh we saw you have seen
19:49
in a number of markets quite a bit of
19:51
rise
19:52
in uh in insurance premium that’s
19:55
completely unrelated to the corvette 19.
19:58
it’s
19:58
it’s really natural disaster related
20:03
should you see any any pause to that
20:06
or any relief to that
20:09
or do you see that the premiums still
20:13
are going up that’s a great question and
20:16
there’s no doubt that particularly in
20:17
the multi-family world but i think
20:19
across commercial real estate we’ve seen
20:21
increases
20:22
over the last three years
20:25
some significant increases an
20:28
interesting stat
20:30
mult insurance companies have lost money
20:33
on the multi-family asset class for
20:36
12 quarters in a row we just completed
20:39
another quarter i don’t know the answer
20:41
this one so it could be 13.
20:42
so you know insurance companies are
20:44
losing money on multi-family
20:46
and that’s why in this asset class in
20:48
particular
20:49
we’ve seen huge increases now i’m doing
20:52
a lot to navigate that
20:54
but that’s a reality i think in the last
20:57
year we’ve seen it stabilize a little
20:58
bit more
20:59
i’ve seen it kind of sit but also covid
21:01
was involved so i think a lot of
21:02
insurance companies are sort of sitting
21:04
still to see what all
21:05
is about to happen in the market so they
21:08
can have a better sense of what they
21:09
need to do around rate
21:11
and uh thankfully i’ve seen on both
21:14
residential and commercial side
21:16
insurance companies get a lot more flat
21:18
for this last year we’ll see what they
21:20
do in the next year
21:22
but there’s no doubt that there’s this
21:24
relationship between natural disasters
21:26
between uh hail chasing roofers which is
21:29
always a back and forth between
21:30
insurance companies
21:32
and um roofers and obviously in in the
21:35
multifamily space
21:36
roofs can be three four five hundred
21:38
thousand dollars millions of dollars
21:40
in some scenarios so that’s a big piece
21:43
and then
21:43
liability law is the other huge piece i
21:46
mean florida is really dealing with this
21:48
where the the laws for litigation
21:51
really lean towards the the folks filing
21:55
the lawsuits
21:56
and insurance companies are struggling
21:58
with how big the losses are
22:01
around those litigation claims now who’s
22:04
right or wrong is not what we’re here to
22:06
talk about but that is just the reality
22:08
of the back and forth
22:10
so when you’re losing millions of
22:11
dollars in a claim where someone burned
22:14
themselves or slipped on a staircase or
22:16
whatever it is that’s maybe an extreme
22:17
example but
22:19
um insurance companies are in a position
22:21
to
22:22
increase premium now that you know you
22:24
look at uh ceos of insurance companies
22:26
they’re making plenty of money so
22:28
i’m not you know crying for the
22:29
insurance companies or anything like
22:31
that but that is the back and forth
22:32
right they’re trying to make a profit
22:34
and if they aren’t making a profit then
22:36
they have to do something to do so
22:38
i’m seeing i’m seeing a lot of companies
22:41
leave multi-family
22:43
say we’re not interested anymore
22:44
companies like
22:46
guard which is a berkshire hathaway
22:48
company they’re still kind of doing it
22:49
but i’m seeing 30
22:51
rate increases on renewals for some of
22:54
those policies
22:55
that’s a company saying we don’t want to
22:57
do it anymore yeah
22:59
we’ll insure it we’ll ensure it if
23:01
you’ll take a thirty percent request
23:03
what they’re saying is
23:04
we don’t wanna do it anymore sure so
23:07
that’s that’s what we’re
23:08
navigating but there’s plenty of folks
23:09
who do want to do it and there’s plenty
23:11
i mean
23:11
my book of business has an average
23:13
increase annually between five and ten
23:16
percent
23:17
um and there’s a lot of things i do to
23:19
make that happen and i have the benefit
23:21
of being pretty large in the midwest
23:23
um not places like texas florida or
23:26
california where it is a little bit
23:27
harder
23:28
but i’m seeing some stabilization is the
23:30
answer to your question but i’m
23:31
not sure where it’s going to go yeah
23:33
okay so
23:35
where do you see the reason why they
23:37
lose more money
23:38
in multifamily than in any other
23:40
commercial
23:41
asset class is it because of the the
23:44
roof
23:45
primarily roof damage and liability
23:47
claims
23:49
you would think solely on the retail
23:51
side you would have also a lot of
23:52
liability
23:54
uh risks so what what is the difference
23:57
between these asset class that
23:59
multi-family is causing
24:01
the largest impact on the negative side
24:05
for these carriers
24:07
when you have uh people living in a
24:10
place there’s just many more
24:11
opportunities for bad things to happen
24:13
i mean the bottom line is the numbers
24:15
are just different that’s the answer
24:16
when you look at office losses they’re
24:18
much lower
24:19
than when you look at multi-family
24:20
losses but the reason for that
24:22
is habitational people living in a space
24:26
has much more repetition of human
24:28
behavior
24:29
many more stoves many more cars parking
24:32
in places many more human interactions
24:34
and parties
24:36
and so you have more opportunities for
24:39
bad things to happen
24:40
including fires including liability
24:44
claims
24:45
and all those kinds of things so in
24:47
general this has been true across the
24:48
history of insurance that
24:50
you know the more a space has activity
24:54
the more likely a claim is to happen and
24:56
therefore the more often claims happen
24:58
in that
24:59
particular asset class yeah that’s a
25:02
great point yeah so you have essentially
25:05
a high density environment uh for almost
25:08
24
25:09
7. yeah yeah yeah
25:12
yeah office most people go home you’ve
25:14
got you know got 12 hours of the day
25:15
where nothing’s happening in that space
25:17
particularly
25:18
you don’t have any stoves or very few
25:20
stoves the most risky part of
25:22
the space now you have people in and out
25:25
there’s risk but there’s just a lot less
25:27
yeah okay very good so when you look uh
25:32
i obviously don’t have a crystal ball
25:34
but uh
25:36
what do you think is going to happen in
25:38
insurance space
25:40
over the next year or two
25:43
due to corey but also because of the
25:45
changes in the way
25:46
everyone works and operates building
25:49
codes
25:50
and so on yeah i think i mean i think
25:53
we’re going to say
25:54
stay a little bit more flat than we were
25:56
in the past two years but i think we are
25:58
going to remain
25:59
a hard market which means you know it
26:02
prices
26:03
are going to continue to go up
26:06
i mean prices don’t go down
26:07
unfortunately i don’t know that there’s
26:09
ever been well that’s not true in
26:10
commercial real estate there can be soft
26:12
markets where you have companies then
26:13
fighting for business if you have it’s a
26:15
supply and demand thing right
26:17
if you have companies vying for business
26:20
then i have the ability as an
26:21
agent to make those companies fight each
26:23
other and
26:24
inherently make the price go down for
26:26
the exact same product
26:28
if fewer and fewer companies are vying
26:30
for that same business
26:32
then those companies sticking around can
26:34
increase their rate because they know
26:36
that there’s not as much supply so even
26:39
though
26:39
it’s not a physical thing that we’re
26:41
selling necessarily it’s a supply and
26:43
demand
26:45
all in the same and right now we are in
26:47
a low supply
26:48
environment and i don’t expect that to
26:50
change i do like how price flattened a
26:52
little bit
26:53
and i do think that as fewer and fewer
26:55
companies are in there
26:56
companies are going to come back they
26:58
always do at some point they look and
27:00
they say look how low the supply is
27:02
i could be in that supply space and so
27:04
i’m going to come back
27:06
and at that point you start to get more
27:08
and then you start to see price
27:10
uh you know be able to get softer which
27:12
gives us the ability to fight them down
27:15
and give our clients a better price so
27:18
i certainly would underwrite for 10
27:21
increases
27:22
a year i think that’s a very safe way to
27:24
underwrite
27:25
um your properties and your deals um
27:28
but you know i think that we can see
27:31
some flattening there without the
27:32
crystal ball that i described
27:34
yeah okay very good so uh we saw only
27:38
what do you
27:38
uh uh refer to we also see in the
27:41
landing space all the time i would say
27:43
right now it’s probably particularly in
27:46
the bridge loan space
27:47
right a year ago a big chunk of the
27:51
the bridge market disappeared virtually
27:53
overnight
27:54
and it was a pretty pretty limited
27:57
uh environment one could find bridge
28:00
loans
28:01
a lot of bridge lenders disappear
28:04
completely
28:04
some of them stayed but they were very
28:06
pecky
28:07
and now we are back to i would say very
28:10
very well before pre-corvette we have
28:13
very aggressive pricing we have players
28:16
coming back in and
28:18
trying to beat each other right so
28:20
obviously we don’t have that situation
28:23
on the
28:23
insurance base in the insurance space
28:26
right now but
28:27
you never know right you just need
28:29
someone who decides i think we
28:32
uh the premiums are high enough that
28:34
it’s worthwhile to enter
28:36
i think so yeah and i think insurance is
28:39
exactly like you just described it’s
28:41
just
28:41
slower everything about the way that
28:44
things change
28:45
in this industry are slower than the way
28:48
that they play out in the mortgage
28:49
industry
28:50
at least that’s been my experience i
28:52
don’t know if you agree with that yeah
28:53
definitely so you uh
28:56
have grown your agency uh quite rapidly
29:00
over
29:01
over the last seven years or so you also
29:04
have a
29:05
podcast so you clearly have a
29:08
marketing element to uh that you that
29:12
you bring to
29:12
to the table uh to your agency
29:16
uh so can you give uh our listeners uh
29:20
uh maybe a few tips of uh
29:23
how they can position themselves to uh
29:26
to be more visible right
29:28
particularly as a real estate investor
29:31
visible to your brokers when you want to
29:34
buy your property is pretty
29:35
important but also particularly if
29:38
you’re a syndicator you
29:40
you need to raise money at some point uh
29:43
so do you have some some snippets based
29:46
on your interviews that you have done
29:48
and as well as
29:49
your own experience where you see that
29:51
these are some
29:52
some marketing elements where it’s
29:55
really
29:56
uh that are kind of the more successful
29:58
ones
29:59
absolutely so i think that one of the
30:01
things i started from the very beginning
30:03
and remains
30:04
true although there’s a lot more people
30:06
doing this now but
30:07
is that when you decide what you’re
30:10
going to do if you’re going to be a
30:11
sponsor if you’re going to be a passive
30:13
investor
30:13
if you’re going to be a joint you know
30:15
do a joint venture whatever it is you’re
30:17
doing
30:17
and you start thinking about who the
30:19
people you need to attract are
30:21
you need to define those people as
30:24
clearly as possible and if you look up
30:26
ideal client avatar there’s lots of
30:29
people with lots of opinions on how to
30:31
develop this
30:32
person but you want to develop the
30:34
people you’re trying to attract
30:36
down to almost like a single human you
30:39
give them a name you talk about their
30:41
personality you know what they do for
30:43
fun
30:44
the more you can zoom in on this person
30:46
you’re trying to attract
30:48
and talk to them in the things that you
30:50
do the larger the community of people
30:52
are going to attract
30:54
to you um it’s just inherently one of
30:57
those things where if you just zoom in
30:58
on one person lots more people want to
31:00
be a part of that whereas if you try to
31:02
talk to everybody
31:03
it’s too bland and no one’s interested
31:06
so the first thing i would do is
31:08
really refine who your ideal client is
31:11
that you’re trying to attract if that’s
31:12
a type of broker who is that type of
31:14
broker what kind of business are they
31:16
doing what kind of car do they drive
31:18
you know really what market are there
31:20
and they in and start to refine that
31:23
once you have an ideal client for
31:25
whatever it is you’re trying to do
31:27
then you’ve got to figure out how to do
31:29
good things for them and i don’t think
31:31
that has to do
31:32
anything to do with your product or what
31:34
you have obviously
31:35
in the work that we do around real
31:36
estate there’s lots of things around
31:38
real estate you can do to help people
31:40
but figure out a way to help them so for
31:42
me the podcast was a great idea my ideal
31:45
client
31:46
is a commercial real estate investor in
31:49
multi-family office
31:50
retail or industrial with 50 or more
31:53
units
31:54
and that is the person i’m trying to
31:56
attract and connect with i always also
31:58
want them to be someone i like and would
32:00
enjoy
32:00
having a drink with or getting to know
32:03
and someone who’s not just trying to
32:04
make me
32:05
quote business against five other agents
32:07
to see who can
32:08
bring them the cheapest dirtiest quote
32:11
so that’s my ideal client so how can i
32:13
help that person
32:14
well a podcast is a great way to do that
32:16
if i’m interviewing other people
32:18
who have a hundred units who have a
32:20
thousand units who have been investing
32:22
in real estate
32:23
like brian burke for 20 years and have
32:26
thousands of units
32:27
you know and ask them how they did it
32:29
and how they succeeded and how they
32:30
built their strategies underneath
32:32
their successful journey and i can
32:35
provide that value to other people who
32:37
are trying to go on the same journey
32:39
then that has nothing to do with
32:41
insurance and i’m not trying to make it
32:42
about insurance
32:43
i am just trying to help those people
32:46
and inherently
32:47
they then turn around and see me as a
32:49
thought leader as well
32:50
so for your listeners you’ve realized
32:54
the ideal client
32:55
now what is it that you can do for them
32:57
podcasts are great there’s a lot of them
32:58
out there though so you know you’ve got
33:00
to have one that makes a lot of sense
33:02
but it’s a great example you could have
33:04
a clubhouse room you could create
33:06
a dot you know have a way to underwrite
33:09
deals if you have a great underwriting
33:12
system a great pro forma that you use
33:14
share that with other people there’s
33:16
lots of ways you can provide
33:18
value to people so start providing that
33:21
value
33:22
and then the last thing i would say is
33:24
you have to be
33:25
consistent in whatever you’re doing if
33:28
you’ve decided
33:29
i’m going to comment on 10 linkedin
33:32
posts a day
33:33
of people that i look up to and want to
33:35
be a part of that’s a great strategy
33:37
that’s an awesome strategy that lots of
33:39
people gary vee
33:40
and jonah weiss and folks like that
33:42
suggest you use
33:44
um as a very simple way that you don’t
33:46
have to create your own content you can
33:47
just go out there and comment on other
33:49
people’s
33:50
you’ve got to do it every day you know
33:52
if you’re going to create a podcast you
33:54
have got to decide
33:55
when am i going to put that out you know
33:56
i’m on episode 47 i put it out every
33:59
tuesday
34:00
for a year now i’ve been podcasting for
34:02
five years but this particular podcast
34:04
has been out for a year
34:05
so that is consistency and what you’ll
34:08
build
34:08
over time is a snowball that grows and
34:11
grows
34:11
and grows and you start to connect with
34:14
those people who you wanted to connect
34:15
with
34:16
and your ideal clients become your
34:18
friends become a part of your team
34:20
and opportunities start presenting
34:22
themselves so
34:24
it’s just a matter of knowing who you’re
34:25
talking to doing good
34:27
things for those people and being
34:29
consistent in the good that you’re doing
34:32
yeah that’s uh all great tips uh what
34:35
you mentioned earlier right with
34:37
focusing on your avatar
34:39
i think that’s uh it’s very important
34:42
i think it’s even important when it
34:44
comes to to your
34:47
investment strategy right we see a lot
34:50
of
34:50
our clients and partly particularly
34:53
newcomers to the space they
34:55
are they are looking at everything right
34:58
so they
34:59
they start they are subscribed to every
35:02
single
35:03
list that they can subscribe to from
35:05
across the country
35:06
with every single listing on market off
35:09
market that is out there
35:10
and they ask me what about what about
35:13
this in indiana what about this in
35:15
phoenix what about
35:16
this in florida and they do not have a
35:19
clue about any of these markets
35:21
but they still think that that might be
35:23
a deal right
35:25
yeah so they are never be able to really
35:28
identify a true opportunity because they
35:30
spread themselves
35:31
way too too thin and
35:35
i i understand it’s always that shiny
35:38
object everyone is
35:39
is looking for right but that focus
35:43
uh on on your clients to focus on
35:46
on the markets to focus on the
35:48
properties that you are
35:50
focusing on is is is really
35:53
a crucial piece to to be successful
35:56
right you need to be an expert in in
35:58
something
36:00
and you cannot be an expert in
36:01
everything no and i mean it leads to two
36:04
things especially in a saturated market
36:06
like we have right now i mean if you’re
36:08
coming into commercial real estate
36:09
for the first time you have to
36:11
understand there are a lot of people
36:12
doing the exact same thing right now
36:15
and that doesn’t mean you can’t succeed
36:17
it does mean it’s going to be harder to
36:19
succeed
36:20
and especially if you’re more spread out
36:22
it’s going to be even harder to succeed
36:24
so if you focus on a market
36:26
or if you’re a passive investor you
36:28
focus on finding the right syndicator
36:30
or if you’re a sponsor you say i i
36:33
know cleveland ohio because i live in
36:36
cleveland ohio
36:37
you know or i know whatever market it is
36:40
you’re focusing on
36:41
you’ve inherently gotten rid of a ton of
36:43
the other competitors that you have in
36:45
your space
36:46
and i think that makes a ton of sense
36:48
and then the other thought is there’s
36:50
just burnout
36:51
you know in social media i think
36:52
clubhouse i don’t know anton if you’re
36:54
on
36:55
a clubhouse or not and i love clubhouse
36:56
and i’m enjoying it but i mean it is a
36:59
constant especially with if you have you
37:01
know the reminders on your phone or
37:02
whatever
37:03
it is constantly asking you to engage
37:06
and be a part and especially if you’re
37:08
spread thin looking for markets all over
37:10
the place in all different asset classes
37:12
at all different values
37:14
it’s just you’re gonna burn out and it’s
37:16
it’s not where you’re gonna end up happy
37:18
and it’s not where you’re gonna end up
37:20
successful and you’re gonna look back
37:22
and wish you had had a better foundation
37:24
a stronger strategy
37:25
and more clarity yeah definitely right
37:29
and uh whether it’s clubhouse whether
37:31
it’s
37:32
facebook linkedin whatever it is it’s
37:34
also important remember
37:36
people always put their best story
37:38
forward
37:42
so don’t be upset right so that uh
37:45
uh social media is
37:49
a beautiful thing but it also can be a
37:51
curse when you
37:52
when you feel that that you are the
37:54
loose on the losing end right everyone
37:57
apparently is winning but you are losing
37:59
when
38:00
in reality that’s uh that’s just part of
38:03
of marketing right
38:04
so oh it’s part of business it’s part of
38:06
being an entrepreneur they’re
38:08
you know every single entrepreneur
38:10
successful not whoever
38:12
you know is struggling 30 of their time
38:15
at least and many are struggling 80
38:17
of their time i would say but none of
38:18
that is shown on the outside i struggle
38:21
at least 30
38:22
percent of my day you know whether
38:24
that’s with why don’t i have a better
38:25
strategy why haven’t i trained
38:27
this individual better than i did before
38:29
why didn’t i reach out to more people
38:31
today like i said i was going to why
38:33
didn’t i
38:33
reach that goal that i wanted to achieve
38:36
and i believe why wasn’t i as consistent
38:38
as i thought i could have been
38:40
you know we all have doubts we all have
38:42
failures and none of those
38:44
are on social media that’s right you
38:46
know yeah
38:47
but that’s just reality and there’s
38:48
nothing wrong with that because that is
38:50
a part of learning it’s what you learn
38:51
from those
38:52
uh doubts what you learn from those
38:54
failures uh
38:55
you know you can’t fit there’s lots of
38:58
things you know
38:59
failure isn’t a bad word or whatever you
39:01
know that’s how you learn
39:02
yeah absolutely you also mentioned right
39:06
add value uh part of that is
39:09
i think is also the to connect people
39:12
right
39:12
refer and don’t expect some return when
39:16
you refer
39:16
someone right and
39:21
if you cannot help you you refer then
39:24
everyone is is remembering that you
39:27
referred someone
39:28
right without asking for anything
39:32
yes you didn’t win but down the road uh
39:34
i think you will still win and you just
39:36
created
39:38
someone else if they the the two
39:40
individuals that connected when they
39:42
were successful
39:43
they both remember that you helped them
39:46
to to be successful
39:48
right so don’t be greedy right
39:51
oh my gosh referrals are the are the
39:53
glue of the real estate community real
39:55
estate
39:56
is a people business we all know that
39:58
and
39:59
referrals are the glue of that and so
40:01
you get two things
40:02
when you refer people one is what you
40:04
just said they remember you as the
40:06
person who brought them together
40:08
but then you know you get that person
40:09
who you ask them for a referral at some
40:11
point and they’re going to give it to
40:12
you
40:13
and i think as a service provider
40:15
there’s just nothing better than a
40:17
referral coming my direction because
40:19
there’s already trust built if someone
40:22
was willing to say
40:24
hey you should go check out shine
40:25
insurance jeremy is awesome
40:27
they take care of us they take care of
40:29
our portfolio and they do an amazing job
40:31
that person also has some already has
40:34
some knowledge
40:35
of who i am and what i am in a different
40:37
way than if they just found me on google
40:40
or whatever and so you’re helping the
40:41
person on the other end you’re helping
40:42
the person who you referred
40:44
and you’re helping yourself referrals
40:45
are just such a beautiful thing
40:47
yeah yeah it’s a great point
40:50
right so jeremy you
40:54
you added the uh great value today to
40:57
our listeners uh how how can they reach
41:00
you when they want to talk to you about
41:02
uh
41:03
your business your podcast marketing
41:06
whatever it might be or hockey
41:09
i’ll always talk hockey you can find me
41:12
all over on social media
41:14
just search my name as far as the
41:16
podcast it is rei
41:17
clarity.com and then if you want to talk
41:21
about insurance
41:22
i really feel like almost 80 percent of
41:24
real estate
41:25
investors have terrible insurance
41:27
policies because of some of the things
41:28
we talked about
41:29
in this conversation if you go to
41:31
shineinsurance.com
41:33
rei quick three-minute quiz that kind of
41:36
helps you to understand whether you’re
41:38
one of them
41:39
um you know it’s pretty simple
41:40
straightforward but gives you a sense of
41:42
if you have some of the things
41:44
that you need uh to be properly set up
41:46
so yeah those are the ways to find me
41:47
and anton i really appreciate
41:49
being able to chat with your audience
41:51
today yeah thanks for being with us
41:56
jeremy