The Ins And Outs Of Marketing Your Commercial Real Estate Business

On This Episode of Peak Market Watch...

The Ins And Outs Of Marketing Your Commercial Real Estate Business

Jeremy Goodrich, Owner of Shine Insurance, and Anton Mattli will dive into Jeremy’s specializations in marketing and in making commercial real estate insurance smart & simple.

Episode Highlights:

  • How Jeremy dealt with client interactions and the effects during the pandemic

  • Marketing elements and tips on how to be visible in the real estate industry

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Show Host

Guest Speaker

Connect with Jeremy Goodrich

VIDEO TRANSCRIPTION

00:00

anton thank you so much for having me

00:01

i’m excited to chat today so

00:04

i am the owner of shine insurance agency

00:06

but really before

00:08

anything else i’m a teacher um so i was

00:11

an elementary school teacher for 13

00:13

years i taught in third third and fourth

00:15

graders how to

00:17

do math how to read how to write how to

00:19

play soccer how to play hockey

00:21

we played a lot of hockey actually it

00:23

was one of my favorites

00:25

um so i spent a lot of time being a

00:27

teacher

00:28

during that time i met my wife and

00:29

business partner who is a third

00:31

generation insurance advisor

00:33

and she was running her dad’s agency and

00:35

we just saw a lot of potential in this

00:38

space we saw

00:39

um a lot of sort of old boys club stuff

00:43

we saw a lot

00:44

of problematic behavior in the

00:47

insurance world as so many of us know i

00:49

mean insurance just has this reputation

00:51

just the word

00:52

we kind of you know uh feel feel

00:55

struggles with it i think all of us do

00:57

and so

00:58

uh we were both ready to do something

01:00

different and we thought what if we try

01:02

and change the way people feel about

01:03

insurance by simply being educators and

01:06

trying to be good people in the space

01:09

and so we started shine in 2013.

01:12

um i fell in love with real estate

01:14

immediately

01:15

so i was working with first-time home

01:17

buyers when i first started and just

01:19

teaching them

01:20

about how to get a mortgage how to fix

01:22

their credit what

01:24

an inspection was what an escrow period

01:26

was what a title company was what

01:28

closings were all these kinds of things

01:30

i was just teaching first-time

01:32

homebuyers how it all

01:34

worked and i was doing that mostly by

01:36

asking realtors and lenders and

01:37

everybody else

01:38

um how it worked i started making videos

01:42

on youtube

01:43

and those videos just started getting a

01:45

lot of views so we now have

01:46

about 14 000 subscribers on a youtube

01:49

channel

01:51

and teaching first-time homebuyers led

01:53

into

01:54

teaching people how to invest in real

01:56

estate uh

01:57

in general which led into really

02:00

commercial

02:00

real estate investing and now i am a

02:03

hundred percent not only on the

02:04

insurance side

02:05

but on the uh youtube channel uh all

02:09

around commercial real estate teaching

02:10

people

02:11

how to succeed in this business how to

02:14

build a strategy

02:15

that makes them lots of money and takes

02:17

great care of people at the same time

02:19

and then how to protect those assets as

02:21

well so

02:22

uh that was a very long short story in a

02:25

very short period

02:26

yeah that’s uh that’s a great story uh

02:30

uh you you were born in in san diego

02:34

right and now you’re based in indiana

02:36

i assume you didn’t play much uh hockey

02:38

in in san diego but you picked it up

02:41

when you

02:41

moved to indiana yeah when i so yeah i

02:44

did more surfing and boogie boarding and

02:46

hanging out on the beach and things like

02:48

that when i was in san diego uh

02:50

in indiana i came to love hockey and

02:52

then i moved to vermont for a while

02:54

and watched a lot of hockey on you know

02:57

cbc

02:58

and stuff like that and you know in

03:00

vermont and obviously canada there’s

03:01

there’s a deep love

03:03

for uh hockey and so as a teacher i

03:06

figured out how to

03:07

we didn’t put on ice skates and stuff

03:08

like that we played like floor hockey

03:10

um but all the same rules applied and i

03:13

would put kids in the box which is like

03:15

you know if they did something wrong

03:16

they’d get put in the box for a while

03:17

and

03:18

and they always thought that was the

03:19

worst having to sit on the side for two

03:21

minutes while everyone else got to play

03:23

yeah but it was good yeah it’s a great

03:25

team sport i’m from switzerland

03:27

originally right there

03:29

ordered in soccer in the summer hockey

03:31

is a big team sports in the winter

03:34

right and it’s a it’s a rough sport

03:37

right but it’s a it’s a very good team

03:40

sport that is uh

03:41

very quick and it teaches the kids a lot

03:44

of

03:45

ways of of dealing with uh with defeat

03:48

and uh

03:49

and roughness too right and uh

03:52

i think that helps also for real estate

03:55

investors right uh

03:56

it’s a rough and humble world in a lot

03:59

of

04:00

in a lot of instances and i think it’s

04:02

always

04:03

uh good to hear from from

04:06

orders uh that that are educating

04:10

investors that are not institutional

04:13

have an institutional background but a

04:16

lot of our clients are

04:18

also private investors or syndicators

04:21

and that’s a big part of our job too

04:25

just to educate them to make sure that

04:27

they are

04:29

aware of all the the pitfalls that they

04:32

may think are not there or someone tells

04:35

them particularly

04:36

coaching gurus tell them it’s all easy

04:39

easy going

04:40

until until they realize it’s not that

04:43

not that easy well yeah i mean i love

04:46

sports analogies in general and i think

04:48

with real estate

04:49

it absolutely applies i mean especially

04:52

commercial real estate right from the

04:53

base it’s a team sport

04:55

i think we all understand that without

04:57

the team around us without trusting

04:59

the other people that are a part of our

05:01

team we don’t get very far if you want

05:03

to

05:04

play a single sport like tennis or

05:06

something like that you go out and

05:07

invest in residential real estate

05:08

that is certainly more possible to do

05:11

but if you’re going to be in

05:12

multi-family or

05:13

office or retail or wherever i think it

05:15

is a team sport and then i think you’re

05:17

right you

05:17

have to learn how to lose sometimes and

05:19

you have to learn to get that repetition

05:22

i hear that over and over again it’s

05:23

like

05:24

you build your strategy you understand

05:26

where you’re going

05:27

and then you get your licks in you get

05:29

your repetition you get your swings in

05:31

whatever your metaphor is that works

05:33

whether it’s a sports metaphor or

05:34

something else

05:35

you’re figuring out what those things

05:37

are so you can a

05:40

learn to get better yourself and b

05:43

learn to tell who the people that have

05:45

red flags about them

05:47

or who aren’t doing it well so that you

05:49

don’t ask them to join your team

05:51

as a part of elevating the game so i am

05:54

a huge fan of sports analogy

05:57

i’m also a huge fan of european soccer

05:59

champions league

06:00

is in full effect right now and i think

06:04

that hockey and soccer are great

06:05

examples of

06:06

team sports as well as so many others

06:08

that really do align with commercial

06:10

real estate investing

06:11

yeah definitely uh it’s

06:14

as you mentioned it’s it’s a team sport

06:17

right

06:19

and you assembling that team early on is

06:22

absolutely crucial

06:23

and uh unfortunately even though we are

06:26

we are telling that our clients over and

06:28

over and over

06:30

some of them are not listening until

06:32

they are already under contract and then

06:34

they

06:35

reach out to us for financing and they

06:37

realize that their

06:39

underwriting was completely off and on

06:42

the insurance side it’s the same thing

06:44

right so then suddenly

06:45

they realize wait i need insurance and

06:50

as you know right it takes some time to

06:53

get

06:53

commercial insurance quotes this is not

06:55

just a residential property where you

06:57

where you get a quote within essentially

07:01

a few minutes right right yeah i think

07:04

that

07:04

the insurance side of that underwriting

07:06

is one more line item one more piece

07:09

that understanding how it works is

07:11

really really important and there are

07:13

some just basic

07:14

simple things you can do the most

07:17

important one

07:18

is this and this is true with so many

07:20

things establishing a relationship with

07:22

someone

07:23

that you trust to know it what it is

07:25

you’re doing

07:26

insurance probably more than a lot of

07:29

other worlds

07:30

has a lot of bad actors not people who

07:33

are purposefully bad actors

07:35

but people and there certainly are those

07:37

but people who are think they can do it

07:39

and just

07:39

can’t the reality is like so many other

07:43

spaces you can make a lot of money

07:45

insuring commercial real estate and so

07:48

someone who doesn’t necessarily know

07:50

what they’re doing if they’re a friend

07:51

of yours or someone you connected with

07:53

them somehow

07:54

you say hey i’ve got a 144 unit

07:56

multi-family

07:57

complex on the coast of louisiana

08:00

that’s a value add it’s got some

08:02

deferred maintenance but i think it’s

08:04

going to be cool can you insure it

08:07

well that person’s thinking boy i could

08:08

make 15 000

08:10

doing that so what are they going to say

08:12

well they’re going to say

08:13

yes and and the reality is they should

08:16

have said no

08:17

and you probably should have asked

08:18

shouldn’t have asked them in the first

08:19

place like

08:20

it’s like asking a lawyer who just got

08:23

out of

08:24

you know law school to write your lease

08:27

for a large multi-family complex or a

08:29

10-year

08:30

triple net lease on an office complex

08:33

like

08:33

you’re going to get what you signed up

08:36

for and that’s not going to be a good

08:37

thing so the first thing i would say

08:39

when it comes to real estate

08:40

or excuse me when it comes to insurance

08:42

is find someone who knows

08:44

what they’re doing and and everything i

08:46

say behind that

08:48

sits underneath that basic premise

08:50

because

08:51

when you ask a lawyer to write that that

08:53

lease you don’t go in there and write

08:55

most of it and then say hey does this

08:57

look pretty good

08:58

and then pay them you know the ten

08:59

thousand dollars you expect them to

09:01

succeed at doing that when you talk to

09:02

your accountant

09:04

um about money and connecting in that

09:06

way you expect them to have some skills

09:08

in that

09:08

i think too often with insurance

09:10

advisors we just think it’s

09:12

easy or it’s not a big thing or it’s

09:14

just a line item we have to deal with

09:15

and we just pick the most

09:16

the closest person and i think that’s a

09:19

huge mistake

09:20

yeah it’s an excellent point we actually

09:22

deal with the same situation right uh

09:25

a lot of our clients ask initially why

09:28

should we use a commercial mortgage

09:30

broker i can go to a lender directly

09:33

yes technically you can the question is

09:36

do you know what lender to reach out to

09:38

right which are the most appropriate

09:41

lenders and once you go under loan

09:43

application

09:44

who is actually helping you to get that

09:46

deal closed without

09:48

as we call it a retrade from a loan

09:51

amount perspective from

09:52

interest rate interest only and so on

09:55

uh so we we have a similar situation

09:58

where

09:59

very often someone believes that they

10:01

don’t really need help when they

10:02

really would would greatly benefit from

10:06

that help

10:07

we also have a lot of residential that

10:09

brokers that think

10:11

because the money obviously they see you

10:13

may make much more money on the

10:15

commercial side

10:16

so that champagne think that they can do

10:19

it

10:20

but that lawyer analogy that you brought

10:23

up is really important right so

10:25

technically

10:26

yes you can get quotes from lenders

10:28

that’s easy

10:30

right collecting quotes is terribly easy

10:33

however the tough part is really to

10:36

identify

10:36

which quote is really realistic and

10:39

which lender can you trust that they can

10:41

perform

10:42

right and if you if you are not in that

10:45

field

10:46

for many years and you have done so many

10:48

loans

10:49

you just don’t know right and that the

10:52

lawyer

10:53

element analogy that you brought up is

10:56

is really important right because

10:58

uh the the the agreements or very often

11:02

standard agreements right so one can

11:04

argue look i can draft that for you

11:07

where the true value of a lawyer comes

11:10

in is to tell you the risks

11:14

that are associated with that

11:17

lease agreement and it’s not really

11:19

written in the agreement itself

11:21

right so you need to be able to identify

11:23

you have the interpretation of the risks

11:26

and hopefully add some wording there and

11:28

i think

11:29

whether it’s for us on the financing

11:31

side or for you on the insurance side

11:33

that’s really where the value comes in

11:36

that

11:37

yes here is a policy but let me tell you

11:40

what the risks are right because

11:44

you have particularly with insurance you

11:46

have so many pages no one reads them

11:48

of course yeah but that that fine print

11:52

can be can have a significant impact and

11:55

if you do not really understand it

11:58

it’s a problem and if you think it’s not

12:00

a problem with

12:01

with a certain class you may have a big

12:04

wake-up call

12:05

down the road right oh absolutely

12:07

there’s two

12:08

two things i thought of as you were

12:10

describing our two industries

12:12

and the way that we serve investors as a

12:15

part of their team

12:16

being so similar and one of those

12:18

similarities is

12:19

the reality for i think both of us is

12:22

finding a really good commercial real

12:25

estate lender and finding a really good

12:27

commercial real estate insurance advisor

12:29

is likely going to end up being

12:30

ultimately cheaper than going the other

12:34

way now it may not seem that way on the

12:36

front end because we’re putting together

12:38

a quality product

12:39

instead of a non-quality product that

12:41

looks cheaper

12:42

but i think in both cases of hours

12:45

oftentimes

12:46

a better advisor is actually going to

12:50

save you money so not only are they a

12:51

better advisor but they’re cheaper in

12:53

the end

12:54

it always amazes me that those two

12:55

things can come together

12:57

of course that isn’t always the case it

12:59

depends on the scenario

13:00

yeah um but and i just think that’s so

13:03

true like there are so many little

13:04

details in loans there are so many

13:06

little details

13:08

in contracts there are so many little

13:09

details and insurance and

13:11

no one expects investors to know all of

13:13

that and that’s why

13:15

building your team is such a key

13:17

foundational piece

13:18

of what you do as a successful

13:20

commercial real estate investor

13:22

because every good leader has people

13:25

they trust

13:26

and that’s what i think you have to

13:28

figure out yeah

13:29

absolutely uh so obviously kovit 19 is

13:34

still on everyone’s mind now we have

13:36

essentially passed roughly one year

13:39

uh in a lockdown environment right

13:42

depending on the state

13:44

uh one lifts in the lockdown

13:47

feels still like a real lockdown in some

13:50

other states like we are in texas

13:52

it feels like almost being back to

13:55

normal

13:56

uh so how how did it uh

14:00

work out for you and some of your

14:02

clients over the last year

14:04

uh starting in in march of 2020 when

14:07

the whole world uh seemed to fall apart

14:11

and how did

14:12

that you and you your clients deal with

14:15

it

14:16

i think for us we were a virtual agency

14:19

pretty well already we had everything

14:21

set up in that space we obviously lost a

14:23

ton of our

14:24

physical interactions with our clients

14:27

with investors with

14:28

other insurance advice you know with

14:30

everybody we just lost a lot of that

14:32

physical interaction like everyone has

14:34

and and that’s coming back a little bit

14:36

slowly

14:36

but i certainly miss that going to a

14:38

conference and getting to see people

14:40

that

14:40

i haven’t seen for a year since the last

14:42

one you know that was big for us but as

14:44

far as our

14:45

business we were very fortunate in the

14:47

sense that not very big effect

14:49

on our business structure itself we were

14:52

already basically built for this

14:54

um the effect on our clients as a whole

14:57

has been huge i mean we have insured

14:59

restaurants

15:00

a small business things of that nature

15:02

we are focused on commercial real estate

15:04

right now which i’ll get into in a

15:05

second

15:06

so that was actually a blessing in a lot

15:08

of ways but a lot of our clients that

15:10

we’ve had for years and years

15:11

closed down or are struggling like so

15:13

many other people

15:15

and so we’ve helped people navigate that

15:16

and i would say a large percentage of

15:19

our small business clients have closed

15:21

down

15:21

whether they reopen or things like that

15:23

or are still to be seen

15:26

but retail has struggled no doubt

15:29

and hospitality as well seeing that come

15:33

back

15:33

a lot more particularly the airbnb space

15:35

vrbo

15:37

that kind of thing but for real estate

15:39

investors i think the first

15:40

big question and this was a business as

15:42

a whole was

15:44

around the coverage of loss of

15:47

income so insurance policies have um

15:51

coverage for lost income so if you have

15:53

a property and a building burns down

15:55

and you are not able to make any money

15:57

from that building anymore you had a 16

15:59

16 units in there for a year we’re

16:02

rebuilding it for you

16:04

and you can’t make the hundred and sixty

16:05

hundred and seventy thousand dollars

16:07

that you would have made off

16:08

of that property your insurance policy

16:10

should have coverage built in to cover

16:12

that lost income so a lot of business

16:16

owners particularly

16:17

main street businesses asked well i lost

16:21

income because of kovit people can’t

16:24

come into my business anymore

16:26

they can’t walk anymore the government

16:27

has shut down me

16:29

you know i had to close my doors does my

16:31

insurance

16:32

policy cover my lost income which was a

16:35

great question

16:36

and the answer is no the reason

16:40

for that is that business income

16:43

coverage

16:43

loss of income coverage is directly

16:46

related

16:48

to a physical loss to your building

16:51

so if your building burns down that is a

16:54

physical loss to your building and loss

16:55

of income would apply

16:57

if your building gets blown over by a

16:59

tornado that is a physical loss to your

17:01

building

17:02

and loss of income would apply a

17:04

pandemic

17:05

does not apply and so there was a lot of

17:08

confusion about

17:09

that early on of course businesses

17:11

hoping that their insurance policy would

17:13

pay out

17:14

for the lost income associated with

17:16

kovid and that just wasn’t the case

17:18

there are some specific policies

17:19

wimbledon was a great example they had a

17:21

policy that ultimately paid out i think

17:23

about 5 million

17:24

or something like that but those are

17:26

specific very expensive policies that no

17:28

one really had

17:29

yeah so that was the biggest coveted

17:31

thing

17:32

early on

17:36

have you seen some carriers

17:39

or some niche players now offering some

17:42

type of

17:44

of insurance that will cover obviously

17:46

no kobe 19 because we already am but

17:49

kind of future

17:51

uh events similar to a

17:54

pandemic or some other events that are

17:56

not

17:57

physical loss related yeah i think we’re

18:00

going to see two things and we’re

18:01

already seeing some of this

18:03

one is a more specific insurance

18:06

product or a thing you can buy that

18:08

specifically addresses lost income from

18:11

this

18:11

my sense is the likelihood of price

18:14

matching what you’re willing to pay

18:16

may not be very clear because it’s just

18:19

such a potentially

18:20

large loss for insurance companies i

18:22

mean had they had to pay for everyone’s

18:25

lost income

18:27

a bunch of insurance companies would

18:28

have gone out of business we would have

18:29

another problem

18:30

um but i see those things starting to be

18:33

created

18:34

the other thing i see is what insurance

18:36

companies often do these scenarios

18:38

is more specifically exclude

18:41

coverage for these things so they say

18:43

well my legal language wasn’t quite

18:46

strong enough and so i want to make it

18:48

stronger

18:49

and so you’ll see new endorsements that

18:52

actually more

18:53

clearly say hey just to be clear

18:56

this is not covered so i think we’ll see

18:58

both of those things

18:59

yeah okay so now uh the exclusions

19:03

grow and grow and grow right so yeah

19:06

insurance policies those 200 pages are

19:08

basically the story of

19:10

a you know 400 year history or whatever

19:12

of

19:13

insurance companies saying we’ll ensure

19:14

this and someone’s saying hey well does

19:16

this get covered and

19:17

them saying oh well that wasn’t very

19:18

clear so we’ll make another little

19:20

clause that makes that

19:21

particular situation clear and back and

19:24

forth and back and forth so

19:26

mike like most legal documents insurance

19:29

policies are a story just a rather

19:32

boring story

19:33

to read yeah yeah

19:36

so uh obviously part is uh

19:39

uh was driven by natural disasters

19:42

that we have have gone through over the

19:44

last uh

19:46

uh year or two uh we saw you have seen

19:49

in a number of markets quite a bit of

19:51

rise

19:52

in uh in insurance premium that’s

19:55

completely unrelated to the corvette 19.

19:58

it’s

19:58

it’s really natural disaster related

20:03

should you see any any pause to that

20:06

or any relief to that

20:09

or do you see that the premiums still

20:13

are going up that’s a great question and

20:16

there’s no doubt that particularly in

20:17

the multi-family world but i think

20:19

across commercial real estate we’ve seen

20:21

increases

20:22

over the last three years

20:25

some significant increases an

20:28

interesting stat

20:30

mult insurance companies have lost money

20:33

on the multi-family asset class for

20:36

12 quarters in a row we just completed

20:39

another quarter i don’t know the answer

20:41

this one so it could be 13.

20:42

so you know insurance companies are

20:44

losing money on multi-family

20:46

and that’s why in this asset class in

20:48

particular

20:49

we’ve seen huge increases now i’m doing

20:52

a lot to navigate that

20:54

but that’s a reality i think in the last

20:57

year we’ve seen it stabilize a little

20:58

bit more

20:59

i’ve seen it kind of sit but also covid

21:01

was involved so i think a lot of

21:02

insurance companies are sort of sitting

21:04

still to see what all

21:05

is about to happen in the market so they

21:08

can have a better sense of what they

21:09

need to do around rate

21:11

and uh thankfully i’ve seen on both

21:14

residential and commercial side

21:16

insurance companies get a lot more flat

21:18

for this last year we’ll see what they

21:20

do in the next year

21:22

but there’s no doubt that there’s this

21:24

relationship between natural disasters

21:26

between uh hail chasing roofers which is

21:29

always a back and forth between

21:30

insurance companies

21:32

and um roofers and obviously in in the

21:35

multifamily space

21:36

roofs can be three four five hundred

21:38

thousand dollars millions of dollars

21:40

in some scenarios so that’s a big piece

21:43

and then

21:43

liability law is the other huge piece i

21:46

mean florida is really dealing with this

21:48

where the the laws for litigation

21:51

really lean towards the the folks filing

21:55

the lawsuits

21:56

and insurance companies are struggling

21:58

with how big the losses are

22:01

around those litigation claims now who’s

22:04

right or wrong is not what we’re here to

22:06

talk about but that is just the reality

22:08

of the back and forth

22:10

so when you’re losing millions of

22:11

dollars in a claim where someone burned

22:14

themselves or slipped on a staircase or

22:16

whatever it is that’s maybe an extreme

22:17

example but

22:19

um insurance companies are in a position

22:21

to

22:22

increase premium now that you know you

22:24

look at uh ceos of insurance companies

22:26

they’re making plenty of money so

22:28

i’m not you know crying for the

22:29

insurance companies or anything like

22:31

that but that is the back and forth

22:32

right they’re trying to make a profit

22:34

and if they aren’t making a profit then

22:36

they have to do something to do so

22:38

i’m seeing i’m seeing a lot of companies

22:41

leave multi-family

22:43

say we’re not interested anymore

22:44

companies like

22:46

guard which is a berkshire hathaway

22:48

company they’re still kind of doing it

22:49

but i’m seeing 30

22:51

rate increases on renewals for some of

22:54

those policies

22:55

that’s a company saying we don’t want to

22:57

do it anymore yeah

22:59

we’ll insure it we’ll ensure it if

23:01

you’ll take a thirty percent request

23:03

what they’re saying is

23:04

we don’t wanna do it anymore sure so

23:07

that’s that’s what we’re

23:08

navigating but there’s plenty of folks

23:09

who do want to do it and there’s plenty

23:11

i mean

23:11

my book of business has an average

23:13

increase annually between five and ten

23:16

percent

23:17

um and there’s a lot of things i do to

23:19

make that happen and i have the benefit

23:21

of being pretty large in the midwest

23:23

um not places like texas florida or

23:26

california where it is a little bit

23:27

harder

23:28

but i’m seeing some stabilization is the

23:30

answer to your question but i’m

23:31

not sure where it’s going to go yeah

23:33

okay so

23:35

where do you see the reason why they

23:37

lose more money

23:38

in multifamily than in any other

23:40

commercial

23:41

asset class is it because of the the

23:44

roof

23:45

primarily roof damage and liability

23:47

claims

23:49

you would think solely on the retail

23:51

side you would have also a lot of

23:52

liability

23:54

uh risks so what what is the difference

23:57

between these asset class that

23:59

multi-family is causing

24:01

the largest impact on the negative side

24:05

for these carriers

24:07

when you have uh people living in a

24:10

place there’s just many more

24:11

opportunities for bad things to happen

24:13

i mean the bottom line is the numbers

24:15

are just different that’s the answer

24:16

when you look at office losses they’re

24:18

much lower

24:19

than when you look at multi-family

24:20

losses but the reason for that

24:22

is habitational people living in a space

24:26

has much more repetition of human

24:28

behavior

24:29

many more stoves many more cars parking

24:32

in places many more human interactions

24:34

and parties

24:36

and so you have more opportunities for

24:39

bad things to happen

24:40

including fires including liability

24:44

claims

24:45

and all those kinds of things so in

24:47

general this has been true across the

24:48

history of insurance that

24:50

you know the more a space has activity

24:54

the more likely a claim is to happen and

24:56

therefore the more often claims happen

24:58

in that

24:59

particular asset class yeah that’s a

25:02

great point yeah so you have essentially

25:05

a high density environment uh for almost

25:08

24

25:09

7. yeah yeah yeah

25:12

yeah office most people go home you’ve

25:14

got you know got 12 hours of the day

25:15

where nothing’s happening in that space

25:17

particularly

25:18

you don’t have any stoves or very few

25:20

stoves the most risky part of

25:22

the space now you have people in and out

25:25

there’s risk but there’s just a lot less

25:27

yeah okay very good so when you look uh

25:32

i obviously don’t have a crystal ball

25:34

but uh

25:36

what do you think is going to happen in

25:38

insurance space

25:40

over the next year or two

25:43

due to corey but also because of the

25:45

changes in the way

25:46

everyone works and operates building

25:49

codes

25:50

and so on yeah i think i mean i think

25:53

we’re going to say

25:54

stay a little bit more flat than we were

25:56

in the past two years but i think we are

25:58

going to remain

25:59

a hard market which means you know it

26:02

prices

26:03

are going to continue to go up

26:06

i mean prices don’t go down

26:07

unfortunately i don’t know that there’s

26:09

ever been well that’s not true in

26:10

commercial real estate there can be soft

26:12

markets where you have companies then

26:13

fighting for business if you have it’s a

26:15

supply and demand thing right

26:17

if you have companies vying for business

26:20

then i have the ability as an

26:21

agent to make those companies fight each

26:23

other and

26:24

inherently make the price go down for

26:26

the exact same product

26:28

if fewer and fewer companies are vying

26:30

for that same business

26:32

then those companies sticking around can

26:34

increase their rate because they know

26:36

that there’s not as much supply so even

26:39

though

26:39

it’s not a physical thing that we’re

26:41

selling necessarily it’s a supply and

26:43

demand

26:45

all in the same and right now we are in

26:47

a low supply

26:48

environment and i don’t expect that to

26:50

change i do like how price flattened a

26:52

little bit

26:53

and i do think that as fewer and fewer

26:55

companies are in there

26:56

companies are going to come back they

26:58

always do at some point they look and

27:00

they say look how low the supply is

27:02

i could be in that supply space and so

27:04

i’m going to come back

27:06

and at that point you start to get more

27:08

and then you start to see price

27:10

uh you know be able to get softer which

27:12

gives us the ability to fight them down

27:15

and give our clients a better price so

27:18

i certainly would underwrite for 10

27:21

increases

27:22

a year i think that’s a very safe way to

27:24

underwrite

27:25

um your properties and your deals um

27:28

but you know i think that we can see

27:31

some flattening there without the

27:32

crystal ball that i described

27:34

yeah okay very good so uh we saw only

27:38

what do you

27:38

uh uh refer to we also see in the

27:41

landing space all the time i would say

27:43

right now it’s probably particularly in

27:46

the bridge loan space

27:47

right a year ago a big chunk of the

27:51

the bridge market disappeared virtually

27:53

overnight

27:54

and it was a pretty pretty limited

27:57

uh environment one could find bridge

28:00

loans

28:01

a lot of bridge lenders disappear

28:04

completely

28:04

some of them stayed but they were very

28:06

pecky

28:07

and now we are back to i would say very

28:10

very well before pre-corvette we have

28:13

very aggressive pricing we have players

28:16

coming back in and

28:18

trying to beat each other right so

28:20

obviously we don’t have that situation

28:23

on the

28:23

insurance base in the insurance space

28:26

right now but

28:27

you never know right you just need

28:29

someone who decides i think we

28:32

uh the premiums are high enough that

28:34

it’s worthwhile to enter

28:36

i think so yeah and i think insurance is

28:39

exactly like you just described it’s

28:41

just

28:41

slower everything about the way that

28:44

things change

28:45

in this industry are slower than the way

28:48

that they play out in the mortgage

28:49

industry

28:50

at least that’s been my experience i

28:52

don’t know if you agree with that yeah

28:53

definitely so you uh

28:56

have grown your agency uh quite rapidly

29:00

over

29:01

over the last seven years or so you also

29:04

have a

29:05

podcast so you clearly have a

29:08

marketing element to uh that you that

29:12

you bring to

29:12

to the table uh to your agency

29:16

uh so can you give uh our listeners uh

29:20

uh maybe a few tips of uh

29:23

how they can position themselves to uh

29:26

to be more visible right

29:28

particularly as a real estate investor

29:31

visible to your brokers when you want to

29:34

buy your property is pretty

29:35

important but also particularly if

29:38

you’re a syndicator you

29:40

you need to raise money at some point uh

29:43

so do you have some some snippets based

29:46

on your interviews that you have done

29:48

and as well as

29:49

your own experience where you see that

29:51

these are some

29:52

some marketing elements where it’s

29:55

really

29:56

uh that are kind of the more successful

29:58

ones

29:59

absolutely so i think that one of the

30:01

things i started from the very beginning

30:03

and remains

30:04

true although there’s a lot more people

30:06

doing this now but

30:07

is that when you decide what you’re

30:10

going to do if you’re going to be a

30:11

sponsor if you’re going to be a passive

30:13

investor

30:13

if you’re going to be a joint you know

30:15

do a joint venture whatever it is you’re

30:17

doing

30:17

and you start thinking about who the

30:19

people you need to attract are

30:21

you need to define those people as

30:24

clearly as possible and if you look up

30:26

ideal client avatar there’s lots of

30:29

people with lots of opinions on how to

30:31

develop this

30:32

person but you want to develop the

30:34

people you’re trying to attract

30:36

down to almost like a single human you

30:39

give them a name you talk about their

30:41

personality you know what they do for

30:43

fun

30:44

the more you can zoom in on this person

30:46

you’re trying to attract

30:48

and talk to them in the things that you

30:50

do the larger the community of people

30:52

are going to attract

30:54

to you um it’s just inherently one of

30:57

those things where if you just zoom in

30:58

on one person lots more people want to

31:00

be a part of that whereas if you try to

31:02

talk to everybody

31:03

it’s too bland and no one’s interested

31:06

so the first thing i would do is

31:08

really refine who your ideal client is

31:11

that you’re trying to attract if that’s

31:12

a type of broker who is that type of

31:14

broker what kind of business are they

31:16

doing what kind of car do they drive

31:18

you know really what market are there

31:20

and they in and start to refine that

31:23

once you have an ideal client for

31:25

whatever it is you’re trying to do

31:27

then you’ve got to figure out how to do

31:29

good things for them and i don’t think

31:31

that has to do

31:32

anything to do with your product or what

31:34

you have obviously

31:35

in the work that we do around real

31:36

estate there’s lots of things around

31:38

real estate you can do to help people

31:40

but figure out a way to help them so for

31:42

me the podcast was a great idea my ideal

31:45

client

31:46

is a commercial real estate investor in

31:49

multi-family office

31:50

retail or industrial with 50 or more

31:53

units

31:54

and that is the person i’m trying to

31:56

attract and connect with i always also

31:58

want them to be someone i like and would

32:00

enjoy

32:00

having a drink with or getting to know

32:03

and someone who’s not just trying to

32:04

make me

32:05

quote business against five other agents

32:07

to see who can

32:08

bring them the cheapest dirtiest quote

32:11

so that’s my ideal client so how can i

32:13

help that person

32:14

well a podcast is a great way to do that

32:16

if i’m interviewing other people

32:18

who have a hundred units who have a

32:20

thousand units who have been investing

32:22

in real estate

32:23

like brian burke for 20 years and have

32:26

thousands of units

32:27

you know and ask them how they did it

32:29

and how they succeeded and how they

32:30

built their strategies underneath

32:32

their successful journey and i can

32:35

provide that value to other people who

32:37

are trying to go on the same journey

32:39

then that has nothing to do with

32:41

insurance and i’m not trying to make it

32:42

about insurance

32:43

i am just trying to help those people

32:46

and inherently

32:47

they then turn around and see me as a

32:49

thought leader as well

32:50

so for your listeners you’ve realized

32:54

the ideal client

32:55

now what is it that you can do for them

32:57

podcasts are great there’s a lot of them

32:58

out there though so you know you’ve got

33:00

to have one that makes a lot of sense

33:02

but it’s a great example you could have

33:04

a clubhouse room you could create

33:06

a dot you know have a way to underwrite

33:09

deals if you have a great underwriting

33:12

system a great pro forma that you use

33:14

share that with other people there’s

33:16

lots of ways you can provide

33:18

value to people so start providing that

33:21

value

33:22

and then the last thing i would say is

33:24

you have to be

33:25

consistent in whatever you’re doing if

33:28

you’ve decided

33:29

i’m going to comment on 10 linkedin

33:32

posts a day

33:33

of people that i look up to and want to

33:35

be a part of that’s a great strategy

33:37

that’s an awesome strategy that lots of

33:39

people gary vee

33:40

and jonah weiss and folks like that

33:42

suggest you use

33:44

um as a very simple way that you don’t

33:46

have to create your own content you can

33:47

just go out there and comment on other

33:49

people’s

33:50

you’ve got to do it every day you know

33:52

if you’re going to create a podcast you

33:54

have got to decide

33:55

when am i going to put that out you know

33:56

i’m on episode 47 i put it out every

33:59

tuesday

34:00

for a year now i’ve been podcasting for

34:02

five years but this particular podcast

34:04

has been out for a year

34:05

so that is consistency and what you’ll

34:08

build

34:08

over time is a snowball that grows and

34:11

grows

34:11

and grows and you start to connect with

34:14

those people who you wanted to connect

34:15

with

34:16

and your ideal clients become your

34:18

friends become a part of your team

34:20

and opportunities start presenting

34:22

themselves so

34:24

it’s just a matter of knowing who you’re

34:25

talking to doing good

34:27

things for those people and being

34:29

consistent in the good that you’re doing

34:32

yeah that’s uh all great tips uh what

34:35

you mentioned earlier right with

34:37

focusing on your avatar

34:39

i think that’s uh it’s very important

34:42

i think it’s even important when it

34:44

comes to to your

34:47

investment strategy right we see a lot

34:50

of

34:50

our clients and partly particularly

34:53

newcomers to the space they

34:55

are they are looking at everything right

34:58

so they

34:59

they start they are subscribed to every

35:02

single

35:03

list that they can subscribe to from

35:05

across the country

35:06

with every single listing on market off

35:09

market that is out there

35:10

and they ask me what about what about

35:13

this in indiana what about this in

35:15

phoenix what about

35:16

this in florida and they do not have a

35:19

clue about any of these markets

35:21

but they still think that that might be

35:23

a deal right

35:25

yeah so they are never be able to really

35:28

identify a true opportunity because they

35:30

spread themselves

35:31

way too too thin and

35:35

i i understand it’s always that shiny

35:38

object everyone is

35:39

is looking for right but that focus

35:43

uh on on your clients to focus on

35:46

on the markets to focus on the

35:48

properties that you are

35:50

focusing on is is is really

35:53

a crucial piece to to be successful

35:56

right you need to be an expert in in

35:58

something

36:00

and you cannot be an expert in

36:01

everything no and i mean it leads to two

36:04

things especially in a saturated market

36:06

like we have right now i mean if you’re

36:08

coming into commercial real estate

36:09

for the first time you have to

36:11

understand there are a lot of people

36:12

doing the exact same thing right now

36:15

and that doesn’t mean you can’t succeed

36:17

it does mean it’s going to be harder to

36:19

succeed

36:20

and especially if you’re more spread out

36:22

it’s going to be even harder to succeed

36:24

so if you focus on a market

36:26

or if you’re a passive investor you

36:28

focus on finding the right syndicator

36:30

or if you’re a sponsor you say i i

36:33

know cleveland ohio because i live in

36:36

cleveland ohio

36:37

you know or i know whatever market it is

36:40

you’re focusing on

36:41

you’ve inherently gotten rid of a ton of

36:43

the other competitors that you have in

36:45

your space

36:46

and i think that makes a ton of sense

36:48

and then the other thought is there’s

36:50

just burnout

36:51

you know in social media i think

36:52

clubhouse i don’t know anton if you’re

36:54

on

36:55

a clubhouse or not and i love clubhouse

36:56

and i’m enjoying it but i mean it is a

36:59

constant especially with if you have you

37:01

know the reminders on your phone or

37:02

whatever

37:03

it is constantly asking you to engage

37:06

and be a part and especially if you’re

37:08

spread thin looking for markets all over

37:10

the place in all different asset classes

37:12

at all different values

37:14

it’s just you’re gonna burn out and it’s

37:16

it’s not where you’re gonna end up happy

37:18

and it’s not where you’re gonna end up

37:20

successful and you’re gonna look back

37:22

and wish you had had a better foundation

37:24

a stronger strategy

37:25

and more clarity yeah definitely right

37:29

and uh whether it’s clubhouse whether

37:31

it’s

37:32

facebook linkedin whatever it is it’s

37:34

also important remember

37:36

people always put their best story

37:38

forward

37:42

so don’t be upset right so that uh

37:45

uh social media is

37:49

a beautiful thing but it also can be a

37:51

curse when you

37:52

when you feel that that you are the

37:54

loose on the losing end right everyone

37:57

apparently is winning but you are losing

37:59

when

38:00

in reality that’s uh that’s just part of

38:03

of marketing right

38:04

so oh it’s part of business it’s part of

38:06

being an entrepreneur they’re

38:08

you know every single entrepreneur

38:10

successful not whoever

38:12

you know is struggling 30 of their time

38:15

at least and many are struggling 80

38:17

of their time i would say but none of

38:18

that is shown on the outside i struggle

38:21

at least 30

38:22

percent of my day you know whether

38:24

that’s with why don’t i have a better

38:25

strategy why haven’t i trained

38:27

this individual better than i did before

38:29

why didn’t i reach out to more people

38:31

today like i said i was going to why

38:33

didn’t i

38:33

reach that goal that i wanted to achieve

38:36

and i believe why wasn’t i as consistent

38:38

as i thought i could have been

38:40

you know we all have doubts we all have

38:42

failures and none of those

38:44

are on social media that’s right you

38:46

know yeah

38:47

but that’s just reality and there’s

38:48

nothing wrong with that because that is

38:50

a part of learning it’s what you learn

38:51

from those

38:52

uh doubts what you learn from those

38:54

failures uh

38:55

you know you can’t fit there’s lots of

38:58

things you know

38:59

failure isn’t a bad word or whatever you

39:01

know that’s how you learn

39:02

yeah absolutely you also mentioned right

39:06

add value uh part of that is

39:09

i think is also the to connect people

39:12

right

39:12

refer and don’t expect some return when

39:16

you refer

39:16

someone right and

39:21

if you cannot help you you refer then

39:24

everyone is is remembering that you

39:27

referred someone

39:28

right without asking for anything

39:32

yes you didn’t win but down the road uh

39:34

i think you will still win and you just

39:36

created

39:38

someone else if they the the two

39:40

individuals that connected when they

39:42

were successful

39:43

they both remember that you helped them

39:46

to to be successful

39:48

right so don’t be greedy right

39:51

oh my gosh referrals are the are the

39:53

glue of the real estate community real

39:55

estate

39:56

is a people business we all know that

39:58

and

39:59

referrals are the glue of that and so

40:01

you get two things

40:02

when you refer people one is what you

40:04

just said they remember you as the

40:06

person who brought them together

40:08

but then you know you get that person

40:09

who you ask them for a referral at some

40:11

point and they’re going to give it to

40:12

you

40:13

and i think as a service provider

40:15

there’s just nothing better than a

40:17

referral coming my direction because

40:19

there’s already trust built if someone

40:22

was willing to say

40:24

hey you should go check out shine

40:25

insurance jeremy is awesome

40:27

they take care of us they take care of

40:29

our portfolio and they do an amazing job

40:31

that person also has some already has

40:34

some knowledge

40:35

of who i am and what i am in a different

40:37

way than if they just found me on google

40:40

or whatever and so you’re helping the

40:41

person on the other end you’re helping

40:42

the person who you referred

40:44

and you’re helping yourself referrals

40:45

are just such a beautiful thing

40:47

yeah yeah it’s a great point

40:50

right so jeremy you

40:54

you added the uh great value today to

40:57

our listeners uh how how can they reach

41:00

you when they want to talk to you about

41:02

uh

41:03

your business your podcast marketing

41:06

whatever it might be or hockey

41:09

i’ll always talk hockey you can find me

41:12

all over on social media

41:14

just search my name as far as the

41:16

podcast it is rei

41:17

clarity.com and then if you want to talk

41:21

about insurance

41:22

i really feel like almost 80 percent of

41:24

real estate

41:25

investors have terrible insurance

41:27

policies because of some of the things

41:28

we talked about

41:29

in this conversation if you go to

41:31

shineinsurance.com

41:33

rei quick three-minute quiz that kind of

41:36

helps you to understand whether you’re

41:38

one of them

41:39

um you know it’s pretty simple

41:40

straightforward but gives you a sense of

41:42

if you have some of the things

41:44

that you need uh to be properly set up

41:46

so yeah those are the ways to find me

41:47

and anton i really appreciate

41:49

being able to chat with your audience

41:51

today yeah thanks for being with us

41:56

jeremy